# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/101 "2013-01-22T14:55:56Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Well…it seems like you have me figured out. That’s pretty much the argument. I’m assuming that by the time you’re getting married your values are already in place. So apparently the only value that kept atheists married longer than non-atheists is God. This is utter nonsense. Seriously, look at what you wrote. It’s jumbled and incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/102 "2013-01-22T15:00:45Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Well…it seems like you have me figured out. That’s pretty much the argument. I’m assuming that by the time you’re getting married your values are already in place. So apparently the only value that kept atheists married longer than non-atheists is God. Atheists are people who don’t believe in God. So, the statistics say that people who don’t believe in God have a lower divorce rate then people who do believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/103 "2013-01-22T15:03:11Z")
It’s like a weird version of the No True Scotsman fallacy - not only is it the case that anyone putting sugar on their porridge isn’t a True Scotsman but apparently everyone who eats their porridge without sugar **is** , regardless of where they’re from. ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/104 "2013-01-22T15:06:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Atheists are people who don’t believe in God. So, the statistics say that people who don’t believe in God have a lower divorce rate then people who do believe in God. I’ll admit it, I did make a big leap in logic there. I was assuming the atheists also had their weddings blessed by God. I suppose if you are a true atheists, the ceremony would be different. By the way who does bless an atheist wedding? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/105 "2013-01-22T15:08:49Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’ll admit it, I did make a big leap in logic there. I was assuming the atheists also had their weddings blessed by God. I suppose if you are a true atheists, the ceremony would be different. By the way who does bless an atheist wedding? No one. I had an atheist wedding. I was married on a Hawaii beach by a judge. Blessing isn’t a real thing. It is a delusion of the faithful. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/106 "2013-01-22T15:11:02Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > So you do believe in God…lol… I’m married, and I’m an atheist. I do not believe in any god, let alone your god. With this information in hand, will you now recant your statement? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/107 "2013-01-22T15:14:34Z")
No supernatural power blesses an atheist wedding. I suppose a civil authority (state government or whatever) can register one, but that’s hardly the same as a “blessing”. Do you take your kids to sit on Santa’s lap for Christmas? The Easter Bunny for Easter? Maybe check their closets or under their beds for monsters? Pretend to take a political position you don’t to prevent awkward social situations? People take actions based on things they don’t believe all the time for perfectly rational reasons. Your argument is further quite tautological. If an atheist behaves in a way you approve, it’s due to God. If an atheist behaves in a way you disapprove, it’s due to rejection of God. That’s not incoherent but it’s rather circular. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/108 "2013-01-22T15:15:05Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’ll admit it, I did make a big leap in logic there. I was assuming the atheists also had their weddings blessed by God. I suppose if you are a true atheists, the ceremony would be different. By the way who does bless an atheist wedding? What is your background that you could possibly think that 1. All weddings are religious and 2. Atheists would require any blessing? Were you raised on some obscure religious compound with nothing to read but the Bible and some chick Tracts? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/109 "2013-01-22T15:15:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m married, and I’m an atheist. I do not believe in any god, let alone your god. With this information in hand, will you now recant your statement? Yes, I apologize, I mistakenly thought that atheist weddings were similar to religious weddings. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/110 "2013-01-22T15:19:26Z")
Could God post an OP so incoherent that even He could not sensibly follow it up? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/111 "2013-01-22T15:22:50Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Yes, I apologize, I mistakenly thought that atheist weddings were similar to religious weddings. Some can be. Doesn’t mean they take the religious part seriously. Think cultural proceedings. Different ethnic groups still celebrate traditional holidays or practice traditional ceremonies even though they don’t believe the underlying religious aspects. For an American example - Hula dance in Hawaii. While some Hawaiians may still practice it in its original religious context, it’s now widely practiced in a secular fashion. I doubt any of the Christian (or other) viewers of a Hula dance attribute any of the subsequent blessings in their life to any of the Hawaiian gods, though that is the implication of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/112 "2013-01-22T15:30:13Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’ll admit it, I did make a big leap in logic there. I was assuming the atheists also had their weddings blessed by God. I suppose if you are a true atheists, the ceremony would be different. By the way who does bless an atheist wedding? No one blessed mine- it was in the conference room in the judge’s office. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/113 "2013-01-22T15:46:47Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > None of this answers (or ever really addresses) the question of “What came before?” - either God, or the Big Bang, or the brane collision, or… whatever. **Something cannot come from nothing** The part I bolded here drives me nuts. Yes, something can come from nothing, and it does so all the time! Our current scientific understanding of the universe is that things indeed can come from nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/114 "2013-01-22T16:12:29Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I’ll admit it, I did make a big leap in logic there. I was assuming the atheists also had their weddings blessed by God. I suppose if you are a true atheists, the ceremony would be different. By the way who does bless an atheist wedding? Well, in our case we became legally married when we showed up at a district office in Bangkok with three witnesses in tow and signed the registration. No one pronounced anything, but as soon as the last of our signatures and those of the three witnesses were entered into the book, we were deemed to be legally married, which was also recognized by the US government. But the wife’s family did not consider us married until the Chinese ceremony a month and a half later, in which case the wife’s mother pronounced us married, as per Chinese custom, or at least custom back in their corner of China. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/115 "2013-01-22T16:18:25Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I suppose if you are a **true atheists** , the ceremony would be different. (bolding mine)What exactly do you mean by “true atheists”, and how are they different from your garden variety atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/116 "2013-01-22T16:37:38Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > By idealize, I simply mean that before we get married we have a pretty good idea what we would like the relationship to be (the ideal). How does that apply to countries and families? This makes no sense at all. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure how many people that get divorced realize it, but in general wedding vows are still religious ceremonies and the union is blessed by God. They know. I think in general they believe their god wouldn’t want them to be stuck in a marriage that isn’t working. > [@pchaos](#): > > I’ll admit it, I did make a big leap in logic there. That’s not a leap in logic. It’s an assumption based on nothing, and it’s an assumption in support of an argument that doesn’t make any sense. > [@](#): > > I was assuming the atheists also had their weddings blessed by God. Why would you assume that? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/117 "2013-01-22T17:30:21Z")
I notice we’ve gone very far from the original topic. > [@pchaos](#): > > Being Start the Ball Rolling. Here’s the problem…if the Universe just developed in an evolutionary manner and let’s say it just happened randomly, then the thoughts of agnostics and atheists are just random thoughts and have little or no validity. Why does there have to be a god for our thoughts to be valid? And anyway, if there is no god, doesn’t it follow that the thoughts of religious people are just as random and “invalid,” whatever that is? Our thoughts are really not random, and however the universe came into being we can think and reason and learn in a systematic way. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/118 "2013-01-22T17:45:29Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > The part I bolded here drives me nuts. Yes, something can come from nothing, and it does so all the time! _What_ can come from nothing? Virtual particles? They do not last long enough to forbidden by Conservation of Energy requirements. Therefore I wonder how they might support the idea of a universe coming from nothing and then lasting for billions of years. There is of course a different issue regarding the status of the Laws of Thermodynamics at the moment of the Big Bang. I believe their status was that they and most if not all other present scientific law did not yet exist. Deep Waters! > [@CurtC](#): > > Our current scientific understanding of the universe is that things indeed can come from nothing. It is fair to wonder to what extent preference for self-creation arises from aversion to theological creation. Mind you, I share the aversion. I hope for, but am unsure of, the validity of argument plausibly excluding God’s presence on the basis of parsimony, on the basis of Occam. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/119 "2013-01-22T17:53:06Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > _What_ can come from nothing? Virtual particles? They do not last long enough to forbidden by Conservation of Energy requirements. Therefore I wonder how they might support the idea of a universe coming from nothing and then lasting for billions of years. There are various processes that can create virtual particles and leave them as real particles indefinitely; in some inflation based cosmologies, the net energy of the universe is zero and everything is a huge vacuum fluctuation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/120 "2013-01-22T18:03:01Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Yes, I apologize, I mistakenly thought that atheist weddings were similar to religious weddings. I’m curious about how you could even think that. Do you think all weddings are in churches? I got married almost 35 years ago in the Ethical Culture Society, in an atheist wedding - in the sense that no god was mentioned or even implied. Worked out pretty well. On the other hand we had friends who were reasonably religious, and he wanted a divorce because God told him to marry his secretary. I’d suspect that atheists lower divorce rate might be a side effect of atheists generally higher education level, but it might also be from being better at facing reality. I’d guess that some divorces come from one side or the other imagining that life would be just wonderful with someone else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=7)