# Was It All An Accident...Or Did An Intelligent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721 "2013-01-19T17:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/161 "2013-01-23T18:32:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He claims that he ran with the “leftys”, and that the “leftys” didn’t know about atheism. > At Cal. > At Berkeley. All depends on what crowd you ran with I assume. If he went to college a few decades ago it’s more than possible that he DID know many atheists or agnostics, but they just weren’t wearing it on their sleeves or being vocal about it. I was pretty much an agnostic from college, and I never explicitly wore that label or told people I was, since I tended not to get into religious bull sessions during my college days, being more interested in sex, drugs and rock and roll (plus lots and lots of beer :p). I generally give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when it doesn’t really matter whether he did or didn’t go to Berkeley…it’s his arguments that are flawed, regardless of where he comes from. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/162 "2013-01-23T19:08:07Z")
Questions for the OP, do you believe in a real live flesh and blood Santa Claus? Did you when you were young? What made you stop? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/163 "2013-01-23T20:41:46Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > No. Disordered systems can develop their own order quite spontaneously. Please ask me for an example. Well, sure! What’s your favorite example? My own favorite example is sand dune ripples. Wind blows over sand: about as random as you could ask for. Yet what results are vast orderly fields of serried dunes, in long straight lines, evenly spaced, looking much as if a giant rake had been drawn through the sand. Japanese ornamental gardening on a very large scale! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/164 "2013-01-23T20:48:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, sure! What’s your favorite example? > > My own favorite example is sand dune ripples. Wind blows over sand: about as random as you could ask for. Yet what results are vast orderly fields of serried dunes, in long straight lines, evenly spaced, looking much as if a giant rake had been drawn through the sand. Japanese ornamental gardening on a very large scale! My favorite example is market economies, millions of self-interested individuals achieving “a more efficient allocation of societal resources than any design could achieve.”(Hayek). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/165 "2013-01-23T21:03:46Z")
Personally, I’ve always thought that the Fibonacci sequence was pretty elegant as an example of order out of basic chaos when it arises in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/166 "2013-01-23T21:03:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > My favorite example is market economies, millions of self-interested individuals achieving “a more efficient allocation of societal resources than any design could achieve.”(Hayek). When was the last time that happened? Or was the annihilation of trillions of dollars of capital in 2008 your idea of efficient allocation of resources? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/167 "2013-01-23T21:11:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, sure! What’s your favorite example? A tornado is a good one. The random movement of wind self organizing into a huge spinning vortex. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/168 "2013-01-23T21:11:46Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > We thought the atheists were apolitical so we didn’t bother to try and indoctrinate them. There were no Marxists at Cal when you went there? That may be the single most unbelievable thing you’ve said in this thread to date. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/169 "2013-01-23T21:14:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > When was the last time that happened? Or was the annihilation of trillions of dollars of capital in 2008 your idea of efficient allocation of resources? It was a market adjustment to a bubble, but that’s neither here nor there…why hijack the thread with this sort of bullshit? If you want to talk about the economy or market economic or whatever start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/170 "2013-01-23T21:43:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It was a market adjustment to a bubble, but that’s neither here nor there…why hijack the thread with this sort of bullshit? Tell that to the guy who injected the dogmatic Hayek quote. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/171 "2013-01-23T21:48:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Tell that to the guy who injected the dogmatic Hayek quote. He said it as an aside about order from chaos, not as a general hijack of the thread. If you think it’s a bad example of order from chaos then that would be a valid point in the discussion…your comment, however, was not as it had zero to do with the topic of the thread (I won’t get into that it shows you don’t understand Hayek enough to even comment as that too would be a hijack). Now you have me hijacking the thread as well. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/172 "2013-01-23T21:55:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > If you think it’s a bad example of order from chaos then that would be a valid point in the discussion… Explain the chaos the markets are formed out of, and why they represent a more ordered system. Oh, and do it without invoking conservative dogma. It is a bad example. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/173 "2013-01-23T22:00:54Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Explain the chaos the markets are formed out of, and why they represent a more ordered system. Oh, and do it without invoking conservative dogma. > > It is a bad example. And instead invoke liberal dogma, ehe? Still, if you think it’s a bad example then that is relevant. Personally, I didn’t think it was a bad enough example to warrant all this side discussion, but whatever floats thy boat. As I said, myself I like the Fibonacci sequence as a mental example of order from chaos. Der Trihs’ tornado is another good one, as is the simple Newtonian precision of planetary mechanics or Trinopus’ ripples in a sand dune. There are lots of examples of order arising from chaos, so the point would be again to contend with the OP wrt whatever s/he meant by ‘random nature’ (still no idea) or why because of the randomness of life arising on this planet we should have some sort of residual randomness in our nature…or something. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/174 "2013-01-23T23:13:12Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Explain the chaos the markets are formed out of, and why they represent a more ordered system. Oh, and do it without invoking conservative dogma. Ok. I’ll be brief and simple; this is a needless tangent. The chaos is vast numbers of individuals with needs and wants. The order is that information (supply, demand, risk, trends, everything) being aggregated into prices, pursuant to voluntary exchanges that satisfy the needs and wants of both parties. These prices contain more information than an individual could possibly accrue, yet arise spontaneously. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > It is a bad example. Examples of sand dunes, tornadoes, and the Fibonacci sequence are all fine. But it should be noted that humans are part of nature, and exhibit spontaneous order as well: market economies, the Internet, common law. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/175 "2013-01-23T23:51:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, sure! What’s your favorite example? > > My own favorite example is sand dune ripples. Wind blows over sand: about as random as you could ask for. Yet what results are vast orderly fields of serried dunes, in long straight lines, evenly spaced, looking much as if a giant rake had been drawn through the sand. Japanese ornamental gardening on a very large scale! My favourite example is [Chesil Beach](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesil_Beach). An 18-mile long bank of billions of shingle rocks, which the waves have contrived to organise in strict order of size - at the northwestern end, it’s pea shingle - as you move toward the other end, the stones gradually increase in size until you get to the southeastern end, where they are large cobbles. (The effect is so consistent than people could apparently work out their position on the beach just by looking at the size of the stones, even if they landed there in fog). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/176 "2013-01-23T23:58:08Z")
Markets and economics are no longer a sub-topic in this thread. If it is an important topic in its own right, then it deserves its own thread; take it there. Several examples of chaos moving to order without an “outside hand” have been provided. Let’s drop the hijack. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/177 "2013-01-24T01:43:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Markets and economics are no longer a sub-topic in this thread. If it is an important topic in its own right, then it deserves its own thread; take it there. > > Several examples of chaos moving to order without an “outside hand” have been provided. > > Let’s drop the hijack. > > [/Moderating] ^ There! ^Right there! Chaos becoming ordered! A perfect example! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/178 "2013-01-24T02:14:54Z")
> [@For You](#): > > ^ There! ^Right there! Chaos becoming ordered! A perfect example! yeah - but it was at Mod’s hands - all hail Mod! all hail Mod! ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/179 "2013-01-24T02:52:01Z")
> [@For You](#): > > The problem is that everything we know about nothing is based in intuition, extrapolation and guesswork… > > Everything you know is wrong, you must know that. OK if we just concentrate on the first and last sentences? Why don’t we call intuition, extrapolation and guesswork part of _creative thinking_, but remind ourselves that sound creative thinking is grounded in observation. You know, we see an apple fall, and in a few years we are able to calculate the orbits of celestial bodies to a high degree of accuracy. Then after additional insight and observation cumlinating in 1919 we are able to refine the original insight to the extent that we _know exactly_ how to remote pilot a vehicle through a bullseye of about one km radius in the vicinity of the planet Neptune. Repeat- we _know exactly_ how to do so. So as far as I can tell all that everything (we) know is wrong stuff is stupid and it is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721/180 "2013-01-24T03:06:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Making something from ‘[nothing](http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-12/making-something-nothing-theory-says-matter-can-be-conjured-vacuum)’ is actually theoretically feasible… W-h-o-o-o-a: (from link, emphasis added): > [@](#): > > It is often said that you can’t get something for nothing, but a handful of scientists from the University of Michigan would beg to differ. Theoretically speaking, they say, you can conjure particles from a vacuum under the right conditions. \*\*All you need is \*\*an ultra-high-intensity laser, a particle accelerator, and **an open mind about what exactly “nothing” is (hint: it’s something).** When we reach the point where something may be considered identical with its opposite then we can prove any hypothesis and win any argument, can’t we? How about getting back with me after you obtain a cite for creation out of nothing where “nothing” has a bit less flexible a definition. And please make extra sure the cite fully accounts for that troublesome First Law of Thermodynamics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-all-an-accident-or-did-an-intelligent/647721.md?page=10)