# Was it possible/plausible for a morally upright person to vote for President Trump in 2020?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 21, 2020, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099 "2020-11-21T04:23:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/21 "2020-11-21T07:27:21Z")
Oh yeah. Just like someone voting for Bernie Sanders, Biden, or most anyone else I consider fine. It might not be my choice or my preference but I’m not living their lives with their experiences and their values.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/22 "2020-11-21T07:33:43Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> Just like someone voting for Bernie Sanders, Biden, or most anyone else I consider fine.
You must be very tolerant. Perhaps I should aspire to be so open-minded as the **octopus** …
~Max
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/23 "2020-11-21T07:45:14Z")
The religious wars of the ancient and medieval, and hell even the modern era, ought to be sufficient to be wary of zealotry.
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### Author:  [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/24 "2020-11-21T07:45:37Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> You must be very tolerant. Perhaps I should aspire to be so open-minded as the **octopus** …
If your mind is TOO open, your brain can fall out. Happened to a couple friends of mine, they’re into QAnon now.
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### Author:  [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/25 "2020-11-21T08:24:04Z")
I don’t think it’s ignorance, exactly, that is at work. I think it is motivated reasoning. Some people strongly like how Trump makes them feel. They hear about and see things he does that would ordinarily bother them, but they are motivated by their strong feelings to deny, explain away, disregard, or even embrace those things. Part of what resonates is a sense of grievance, being invalidated and unappreciated; Trump validates their anger, their sense of importance, and being seen and heard. He reassures them that they deserve their privilege.
So, can someone be morally upright and vote for Trump. I would say that it is not a morally upright action, but the person can still be a generally good person who did a bad thing. The act of voting for Trump is racist, sexist, xenophobic, antidemocratic, and with Covid-19, inhumane. I generally think people are morally responsible for their actions. I also think that motivated reasoning is incredibly powerful, and that we all do it to some degree. I think some people are capable of recognizing it, and for some, not while it’s happening.
I mentioned in another thread that, at this point, Republicans need a [Joseph Welch](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch) moment: “You’ve done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”
Something to break that emotional tie to Trump. Once it happens, I think the number of people who support him, or even will admit voting for him, will drastically decline. I think some of the people who did support him will generally be moral people again, and will not take such drastically racist, sexist, etc. acts again as voting for Trump.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/26 "2020-11-21T12:36:09Z")
I agree with eschrodinger’s post — every word of it.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/27 "2020-11-21T12:52:54Z")
You had two candidates with opposing positions on the #1 news story of the year, one so massive you could _not_ be ignorant of it.
Candidate 1: We will do nothing except allow up to 3 million additional deaths hoping that we all get so sick from this thing as to develop something called ‘herd immunity’.
Candidate 2: ‘I will use the full force of the Federal Government to fight this thing, trying to save as many lives as possible.’
A vote for candidate 1 is a _knowing_ vote to kill up to 3 million country men. A vote for candidate 2 is a _knowing_ vote to save them. Sorry, but ‘ignorance’ doesn’t cut it as an excuse when it comes to Rona.
A vote for Trump in 2020 damned your soul to Hell. Or, Christianity is full of shit. I’m happy with either option.
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### Author:  [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/28 "2020-11-21T21:15:38Z")
> [@JohnT](#):
>
> A vote for candidate 2 is a _knowing_ vote to save them
No, even in your scenario there is no guarantee that a vote for #2 will save anybody. Indeed, Trump’s argument was that Biden’s “cure” - candidate #2’s efforts - would be worse than the disease itself.
Can you accept that for the sake of argument, and still come to the same moral conclusion?
~Max
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/29 "2020-11-21T21:49:47Z")
I was talking to my sister a week ago and she was embarrassed to tell me that her SIL had voted for Trump for one reason only: He thought it would be good for his 401k. I thought I knew and he seemed like a decent sort, but this floored me.
Where did this meme come from that Rhode Islanders believe that people with Portuguese names get free cars and free apartments? Not Fox, I don’t believe. But it must come from somewhere.
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [November 21, 2020, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/30 "2020-11-21T21:56:13Z")
No, because Trump is factually and morally wrong as his equation is simply $ \> people. Fuck that.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/31 "2020-11-22T00:14:57Z")
There are many things that my mother is wrong on, but as the most concise and factual example, she claims that only 10 black men were shot by police last year.
I have pointed to many many cites that show that that is not true, but she still believes it to be.
I do not believe that it is moral to believe what justifies your actions in spite of very explicit evidence to the contrary.
As I said, there are many things that she is wrong on, from Benghazi to Burisma (not meant as an exclusive alphabetical set) and will not change her mind on, not because she does not have access to the information, but because if she were to believe differently than she does, then it would not justify her actions.
Nearly all of my family voted for Trump, and they have no reason to be ignorant of the consequences. In my eyes, not a single one of them is moral. They are nice enough people, to who they choose to be nice to, but being nice to people that you like doesn’t make you moral.
In my eyes, in order to be moral, you have to be nice to people you don’t like as well, and to put some level of effort into making sure that that is the outcome of your actions.
I’m sure that there are people who live in areas where they cannot physically escape the information bubble that they are in, or that do not have the mental capacity to perform any level of critical thinking, that may have, in good faith and for entirely moral reasons, pulled the lever for Trump. So, 1, maybe 2% of Trump voters I can give a pass to.
The rest of them knew what they were signing us up for, and did it willingly and with malice. Fuck them, the whole lot of 'em. And yes, that does include most of my family.
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### Author:  [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/32 "2020-11-22T00:35:49Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> The rest of them knew what they were signing us up for, and did it willingly and with malice. Fuck them, the whole lot of 'em. And yes, that does include most of my family.
Are you nice to them?
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### Author:  [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/33 "2020-11-22T00:57:56Z")
If you voted for Trump, you have much to atone for. Could you still be moral? Sure. Much as a drunk driver who plows throw a bunch of kids at a crosswalk could still be moral.
But you have much to atone for.
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### Author:  [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/34 "2020-11-22T06:08:29Z")
[https://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/amp/](https://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/amp/)
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/35 "2020-11-22T16:01:42Z")
Yeah, I think so. Not so nice that I humor their conspiracy theories and lies, and I’m a bit rude in that over the last few years, when they start in on them, I just up and leave, whether that be in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner, a birthday, or while the kids are unwrapping presents on Christmas.
I’m pretty thankful to have a good excuse not to go over there for Thanksgiving this year, though it sounds like they are having the whole extended family anyway, so I expect a Covid outbreak whether or not I attend. Although avoiding exposure myself is beneficial.
But, on usual years, even though I disagree with them on just about everything, I show up for family events, I usually do most of the cooking, I play with the kids, bring them gifts. I even go with them to church a few times a year. I am happy to talk about sports, the weather, things going on in the neighborhood or other social events.
I used to not mind talking about politics, but that was before they were disconnected from reality. We disagreed, sometimes even “passionately” on things, but what we disagreed on were interpretations or solutions to issues, not the facts of the issues themselves.
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### Author:  [@Olfatbut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olfatbut)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/36 "2020-11-22T16:44:09Z")
There are many reasons to support Trump, immorality or a-morality are just two of them.
1. Loyalty to the party. Some might see R-brand loyalty as morally virtuous. AKA putting party above country. Maybe because Jesus.
2. Inability to evaluate the validity of “facts”. A whole industry has turned the first amendment against itself: if you can’t stifle dissenting views, drown them out with nonsense. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not so easy and a morally upright person may well make bad choices here.
So yeah a corrupt morality, ignorance, and lack of critical thinking skills can all lead to a morally upright person choosing Turnip in 2020.
These are all failures of the public school system btw. Every fifth-grader should be given a cognitive toolkit sufficient to recognize and discount propaganda.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/37 "2020-11-22T21:01:42Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> Morally upright in _your_ eyes
Well, there’s the rub. Then the answer is no (absent software glitches etc, but that’s trivial. I’m just assuming intentional voting here).
Willful ignorance is a moral failing in _my_ eyes. And no, _thinking_ you’re informed is no excuse. That’s just _nested_ willful ignorance.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/38 "2020-11-22T23:12:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#):
>
> I appreciate your arguments, the only one I don’t agree with is the moral imperative to be informed before voting.
>
> I agree, it’s very important and morally good to be well-informed. But I would not hold it against someone who voted without being well-informed if I think _they honestly thought they were well informed_. And I think that’s where a lot of Trump voters and even supporters lie.
>
> ETA: Well, also your point about disagreement. Disagreement can be based on ignorance and can be used as a “get out of morality free card”, specifically disagreeing on facts. People disagree about facts all the time, by definition, one party is ignorant or insincere.
>
> ~Max
It actually seems like you didn’t disagree with me at all. You just misunderstood me. I specifically said there’s a moral imperative to attempt to be informed–they may not succeed. And I was separating out disagreement and ignorance as two separate things. Disagreement due to ignorance is just ignorance.
While I’m here, I’d also like to address something you said in the other thread, as we were told to take the conversation to a new thread. And my response is relevant to this thread as well.
> [@Election Day \[Week\]\[Month\[s\]\] \[Year\] 2020 follow-along thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-day-week-month-s-year-2020-follow-along-thread/924618/6690):
>
> I don’t personally think Trump is an authoritarian. That’s not his style; I don’t think he has it in him.
I consider that a disagreement at the factual level. If you agree he tried to subvert the vote and is currently in the process of trying to delegitimize the vote and still remain leader when he’s been voted out, then he is by definition an authoritarian. Any time someone rejects the results of a democracy and installs themselves as leader, that is authoritarianism.
I would also, however, point out his other authoritarian aspects. He kept saying he was going to force newspapers to stop saying bad things about him. Several times he’s tried to unilaterally do things the president doesn’t have the power to do on his own. He actively tries to ruin the lives of everyone who is ever opposed to him. He even tries to declare that reality itself must obey his commands.
He’s definitely the authoritarian type. He’s shown it his entire presidency, and that is why he is trying to overthrow our democracy right now. That’s what authoritarianism does.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/39 "2020-11-22T23:19:22Z")
> [@Olfatbut](#):
>
> So yeah a **corrupt morality** , ignorance, and lack of critical thinking skills can all lead to a morally upright person choosing Turnip in 2020.
I agree with the other two aspects (I usually call them both “ignorance,” but I can understand separating them out.), but the part I bolded seems to be a contradiction. If someone has a corrupt morality, they are not morally upright.
As for believing loyalty is a virtue, I would point out that, while it can be considered such, loyalty to an evil person is just being evil. Loyalty to your friend who you know murdered someone is just aiding and abetting, for instance.
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### Author:  [@Olfatbut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olfatbut)
#### Post date: [November 22, 2020, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-possible-plausible-for-a-morally-upright-person-to-vote-for-president-trump-in-2020/926099/40 "2020-11-22T23:27:58Z")
Ah, true. I should have put “corrupt but well-intentioned morality”. The distinction there has been hashed out upthread.
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