# Was it right for Irgun to Bomb the King David Hotel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521 "2003-05-02T00:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TJ555\_The\_Golfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@TJ555\_The\_Golfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJ555_The_Golfer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/1 "2003-05-02T00:56:58Z")
Cite: [http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/King\_David.html](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/King_David.html) I provide the link for informational purposes only. Not to endorse or condemn their views. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/2 "2003-05-02T02:10:35Z")
Terrorism - bad. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/3 "2003-05-02T03:34:31Z")
Right? No, of course not. Welcome to the wonderful world of power politics and nations carving out their existence the way every other nation has throughout history. Namely by any mean necessary, and it’s not a pretty thing. Kinda like, ehm, Palestine. Proto-Israeli terrorists also lobbed hand grenades at cafes and assassinated a UN diplomat. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/4 "2003-05-02T04:05:55Z")
Right? Is any act of war right? Terrorism? No. It was a military target, the headquarters for the British army in the region. And a warning was called in … and dismissed as phoney and thus ignored. Guerilla warfare maybe. Which is not to say that there were not Israeli terrorists around Israel’s inception; there were. But the Irgun were not terrorists. They were actually in conflict with the groups that employed terror practices. And overall they prevailed. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/5 "2003-05-02T04:24:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Right? Is any act of war right? Terrorism? No. Is that so? > [@](#): > > It was a military target, the headquarters for the British army in the region. Yep. Much like the pentagon was a military target in the 9/11 attacks, wouldn’t you say? And oh yeah a bunch of civilians was killed in the King David bombings. > [@](#): > > And a warning was called in … and dismissed as phoney and thus ignored. Claimed by the Irgun. Confirmed by no-one. Check your facts. > [@](#): > > Which is not to say that there were not Israeli terrorists around Israel’s inception; there were. But the Irgun were not terrorists. BS. The Irgun were terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/6 "2003-05-02T05:04:04Z")
skip has answered you in another thread … phone call confirmed by a British MP and story corroberated by the operator at the Post who also called the police immediately with the phone call there. And yes, one could argue that the Pentagon is military target, and that civilians killed in the Pentagon were thus “collateral damage” … if we were at that time engaged in a war with “the enemy” … but the use of a civilian airliner is targeting civilians without debate. But again, the bigger point is that even thought the King David Hotel bombing was not a terror act, terror _was_ used by some elements on the Zionist side. And that other Zionist leadership took on those elements and manged to successfully control and reduce the use of terror. It can be done. Leadership can take on the elements within their side that actively engage in terror. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/7 "2003-05-02T06:45:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSeid \* > \*\* > But again, the bigger point is that even thought the King David Hotel bombing was not a terror act, terror _was_ used by some elements on the Zionist side. And that other Zionist leadership took on those elements and manged to successfully control and reduce the use of terror. It can be done. Leadership can take on the elements within their side that actively engage in terror. \*\* Sorry, but calling it anything else but a terror act is apologist bullshit. The fact that military was stationed there does not detract from that at all. There was no more war going on than at 9/11. The death of civilians WAS accepted as a probable outcome. We’re not talking about an isolated building in the desert here. We’re not talking about military barracks. We’re talking about an originally civilian building that was being used by the military. Using the phone calls as an excuse is quite pitiful, since it would apologize the majority of IRA attacks as well. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/8 "2003-05-02T09:18:58Z")
Actually the attack on the King David Hotel was part of an ongoing guerilla campaign by the Haganah (of which Irgun was a part of, although their relationship to other groups were severely strained after the attack) which had been going on since the end of World War Two. Attacks on British military targets (such as the two attacks against British Intelligence Headquarters in Jerusalem) were common, some taking place years before the attack on the King David Hotel (as early as 1944). [This page](http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac08.htm) details a number of attacks on the British Military before the attack on the King David Hotel. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/9 "2003-05-02T09:37:42Z")
**DSeid** do you consider the IRA to be a terrorist organisation? While they have killed civilians in attacked aimed at them they have also hit 100% military target after warnings etc. So were the IRA terrorists some times and not at other depending on their tactics? Also do you look at the attack on the USS Cole as a terrorist act or not? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/10 "2003-05-02T09:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*Is that so? > > Yep. Much like the pentagon was a military target in the 9/11 attacks, wouldn’t you say? And oh yeah a bunch of civilians was killed in the King David bombings. > > Claimed by the Irgun. Confirmed by no-one. Check your facts. > > BS. The Irgun were terrorists. \*\* Randy, you’ve forgotten the guiding principle, anything the USA and their side-kick does is by definition good and pure and anything done against them is by definition, evil. Try and not let logic blind you in future okay? It makes you sound like some fag commie-nazi! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/11 "2003-05-02T12:09:51Z")
By the way, I’d hope that anyone expressing outrage here over this nearly half-century old bombing, would be quick to condemn any suggestion that it “justifies” the continued use of violence by Palestinian terrorists. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/12 "2003-05-02T12:17:35Z")
- Randy, you’ve forgotten the guiding principle, anything the USA and their side-kick does is by definition good and pure and anything done against them is by definition, evil.\* Uh, at the time of all this Israel (the “side-kick”) was not even in existence. And the US was definitely not supporting the Haganah as they even had reservations about the founding of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/13 "2003-05-02T12:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\*By the way, I’d hope that anyone expressing outrage here over this nearly half-century old bombing, would be quick to condemn any suggestion that it “justifies” the continued use of violence by Palestinian terrorists. > > Yes? \*\* Justifies? Of course not. But it demonstrates a certain degree of hypocrisy that Arafat is considered unacceptable as a leader of the Palestinians while Yitzhak Shamir was seen as perfectly acceptable as leader of Israel. I still remember one of those peace conferences during Shamir’s time where a Syrian delegate produced an old ‘wanted’ flyer by the British asking for Shamir’s arrest. The Israelis were quite exasperated and denied any similarity. No such action is justified. But a meat packer calling a butcher murderer isn’t very convincing in his claiming the moral high ground. I’d leave the finger pointing to people whose fingers aren’t red with the blood of the other side. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/14 "2003-05-02T12:38:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Skip \* > \*\*\* Randy, you’ve forgotten the guiding principle, anything the USA and their side-kick does is by definition good and pure and anything done against them is by definition, evil._ > > Uh, at the time of all this Israel (the “side-kick”) was not even in existence. And the US was definitely not supporting the Haganah as they even had reservations about the founding of Israel. \*\* Yes, i’m quite aware of that thank you. I was obviously referring to the inevitable see-no-evil kneejerk responses to anything putting the gruesome twosome in a bad light. You might be better addressing the poster who thinks it was a military target, whose argument is that it was a guerilla war instead of a just a bunch of thugs intent on stealing another people’s country by force. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/15 "2003-05-02T13:06:26Z")
Dseid, It certainly sounds like you do believe that there were some kind of war going on between the Brits and the Jews back in those days. So it would seem then that some historical perspective is called for. Why did the Irgun, the “Stern gang”, et al, start conducting terrorist acts back then? Had the jews in Palestine been attacked by the Brits? “[www.palestinefacts.com](http://www.palestinefacts.com)” gives the following recount of events: [http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf\_mandate\_attacks\_jewish.php](http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_attacks_jewish.php) > [@](#): > > Why did Jewish armed resistance against the British begin? > In the summer of 1945, a general election was held in Britain. The Labor Party pledged that if they were returned to power, they would revoke the 1939 White Paper and permit Holocaust survivors to immigrate to Eretz Israel without delay. They also promised to act for the establishment of a Jewish national home in Eretz Israel, which would gradually evolve into an independent state. Labor won the election but then turned away from these promises. > […] > British adamancy on immigration radicalized the Yishuv. Under Ben-Gurion’s direction, the Jewish Agency decided in October 1945 to unite with Jewish dissident groups in a combined rebellion against the British administration in Palestine (the United Resistance Movement). The combined Jewish resistance movement organized illegal immigration and kidnapping [and assasinations] of British officials in Palestine and sabotaged the British infrastructure in Palestine. > In November 1, 1945, the three organizations conducted their first joint attack, the “Night of the Trains”. \*Note: I won’t vouch for the unbiasedness of this recount; “palestinefacts” is pretty Pro-Israel, maintained by “The Jewish Internet Association”, here: [http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org/](http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org/). From their frontpage:\* > [@](#): > > What is the purpose of Jewish Internet Association? > Israel and the Jewish people are under attack in one of the front line battles of the war between peaceful Western nations and hostile forces that seek to destroy our civilization, our freedom and way of life. Every channel must be utilized to resist and convert others to our defense and support. In the 21st century, the Internet is one of the battlefields of that war and JIA is determined to hold the line." _Maybe not the most balanced account of world affairs_ 🙂 Anyways, enough hijack. It should be clear enough that hostilities from the “jewish resistance” began not as an act of self defense but rather for political purposes; as a means to pressure the Brits to allow jewish imigration to the Palestine mandate and the formation of a jewish state. Now given those particular historical circumstances it should also be quite clear that even attacks on pure military targets would qualify as terrorist acts. Let’s not forget, however, that the activities of the Irgun and the Stern Gang included murdering numerous british policemen, the assasinations of the British minister resident (Lord Moyne) and of the UN’s special mediator on Palestine (Folke Bernadotte), as well as massacres of the arab civilian population (Deir Yassin), etc. Enough background, on to the bombing of the King David hotel then… > [@](#): > > _DSeid_ > skip has answered you in another thread … phone call confirmed by a British MP and story corroberated by the operator at the Post who also called the police immediately with the phone call there. Skip’s reply… I had to look around for a while to find it, but I guess you’re referring to this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=180799](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=180799) > [@](#): > > _Skip_ > Menachem Begin in his book, The Revolt, claims that the bombers telephoned a number of people to warning them to evacuate the building, as he feared civilian casualties: The French Consulate, The Palestine Post and the hotel itself (where he was rebuffed with “we don’t take orders from Jews”). The British denied a phone call ever being made to the hotel but in 1979, a survivor of the blast came forward came forward claiming that he overheard officers joking about receiving threats from Zionists that the hotel would be blown up. He promptly left the hotel and survived the blast. This survivor story was brought forward by a British MP. The article I read this in didn’t have any names for the MP or survivor but it uses as reference the report from the 1979 Jerusalem Conference on Terrorism (p. 45 in the proceedings) by Benjamin Netanyahu (yes that Netanhayu). You might poo-poo the source but I don’t see anything factually incorrect there. This information is waltzing about on several web sites… To summarize: Begin and the Irgun themselves claim that a warning call to the King David was made. But the testimony of the perpetrators themselves amounts pretty much to nada without other evidence to back it up. So then, in the 70s, a british MP brought forward a story from a brittish soldier who worked at the King David at the time of the bombing and claims to have overheard officers talking of a bomb threat. I guess this is what you are refering to when you proclaim “phone call confirmed by a British MP”, even if it does sound like you somewhat confusedly believe that the MP himself was a witness to the actual phone call. Which is quite the far cry from reality. Rather one person who claims to have overheard other persons talking about an event, one that you believe to be a proven fact. Oh, some 30 years passed between the bombing and the time when one single witness choses to come forward and make these claims. My two cents says all this amounts to pretty shaky evidence. But let’s assume for the sake of the argument that a call _was_ made to the King David. Would that then make the bombing not an act of terror? If you believe that, do you also think that the attacks on the World Trade center would no longer have been terrorist attacks if a call had been made some 35 minutes before those planes crashed into the scyscrapers? And in response to the other apologist argument: Would the WTC have been a legitimate target if the CIA happened to have an office on one of the floors? Spin it any way you like, I say that a guy who blew up a building with civilians inside is still a terrorist proper. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/16 "2003-05-02T13:10:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Justifies? Of course not. But it demonstrates a certain degree of hypocrisy that Arafat is considered unacceptable as a leader of the Palestinians while Yitzhak Shamir was seen as perfectly acceptable as leader of Israel. I still remember one of those peace conferences during Shamir’s time where a Syrian delegate produced an old ‘wanted’ flyer by the British asking for Shamir’s arrest. The Israelis were quite exasperated and denied any similarity. > > No such action is justified. But a meat packer calling a butcher murderer isn’t very convincing in his claiming the moral high ground. I’d leave the finger pointing to people whose fingers aren’t red with the blood of the other side. I second that. The problem is as always one of credibility. Israel quite simply lacks it when partaking in the game of moral outrage over terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/17 "2003-05-02T14:30:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RandySpears \* > \*\*The problem is as always one of credibility. Israel quite simply lacks it when partaking in the game of moral outrage over terrorism. \*\* Let’s see. The Americans in 1775 fired on and killed numbers of British troops when the latter went on an expedition to seize what they considered to be illegal arms caches. No war had been declared. These were terrorist acts. The British, in retaliation for an armed attack against the military by the Boers, ordered houses of civilians burned down in a wide radius around the location of this act, and in the course of the war imprisoned many thousands of Boers and their families in concentration camps, resulting in a high death toll. These were terrorist acts. The Germans, in the process of seizing land from others…well, you get the picture. So nobody can claim entirely clean hands in denouncing terrorism. But it still has to be denounced and firmly acted against. The bombing cited in the OP was inexcusable. So is the subtext that appeals to some people, i.e. “Israelis have no moral standing to protest terrorism”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/18 "2003-05-02T14:31:51Z")
yojimbo, When the IRA attacks a military target, then they are engaging in guerilla warfare. When they attack civilian targets attempting to influence policy by fostering a climate of fear, then they are engaged in terrorism. If someone who committed murder in the past then kills someone in self-defense then the self-defense death is not a murder just because the perpetrater is a murderer. Members of Irgun may have engaged in some terror attacks. Dier Yassin, for example, probably qualifies as a terror attack (although some small debate still exists) and members of Irgun were involved in that episode. But that doesn’t make the destruction of a legitimate military target, with or without warning, with or without “collateral damage”, a terror attack. And the attack on the USS Cole, IMHO, was not terrorism. It was a guerilla attack. Which doesn’t make it right or wrong. Good or evil. Just clarifying what is guerrilla warfare and what is terrorism. Just like civilian deaths that occured while bombing Iraq were not terrorism. Including ones that occurred before war was officially declared. Unless the primary intent was to kill civilians and cause a policy change by means of instilling fear in a general population. And how the WTC would still be a terror attack even if the CIA “happened” to have a presence in the building since the prime intent of the attack was to kill civilians. Randy, Who ever defined war as self-defensive actions only? Or said that it can only be engaged in by established countries? Were the American colonists not at war with Britiain because they were not yet an independent country but rather trying to achieve it? When Palestinians blow up a military convoy that is not terrorism. Even though they are not yet a state. When they aim for a public bus without miltary value then it is. And as to the point about dealing with terrorists. I repeat myself because you choose to ignore the pertinent point: The problem is not that Palestinian leadership _were_ terrorists but they still are, at least minimally, facilitating the use of terrror. The use of terror by either side must stop before progress can be achieved. And I include Israel in this. Terror acts of more than half a century ago, like Dier Yassin, are irrelevant to such a discussion, but current home razings, in my mind, _do_ qualify as terrorism. They are attacks against civilian targets aimed at causing a policy change by causing general fear. Wimpy terrorism compared to blowing up cafes and schoolbusses, but terrorism nevertheless, and it must stop before progress can be made. Terrorist elements can be reined in by leadership. Early Zionist leadership proved that. Palestinian leadership needs to do it now. Israeli leadership needs to stop home razings. Then it doesn’t matter what past blood is on either of their hands, they can sit down and talk about building a future. Roadmap or not. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/19 "2003-05-02T14:35:32Z")
_But let’s assume for the sake of the argument that a call was made to the King David. Would that then make the bombing not an act of terror? If you believe that, do you also think that the attacks on the World Trade center would no longer have been terrorist attacks if a call had been made some 35 minutes before those planes crashed into the scyscrapers?_ I believe there is a fundamental difference when the attacker tries to prevent the death of civilians (which is why Irgun made the calls, the fact that they were ignored was out of their hands), and purposefully trying to kill as many civilians as possible (certainly one of the aims of the WTC attacks). ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521/20 "2003-05-02T14:37:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\* > The bombing cited in the OP was inexcusable. So is the subtext that appeals to some people, i.e. “Israelis have no moral standing to protest terrorism”. \*\* Sorry, but you were comparing apples and oranges. There is a difference between condemning terrorism and claiming a moral high ground about someone you have been abusing yourself and who uses your very own methods. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-it-right-for-irgun-to-bomb-the-king-david-hotel/172521.md?page=2)