I think it is clear from my posts I am hardly GWB’s biggest supporter. I think he is far too deep in the pocket of the Religous right. But that prayer proves nothing. Clinton had a similar prayer, and so has most every President as far back as we have had them. It is traditional. Does that make it “right”? I dunno, but certainly GWB can be attacked on better grounds- like Ashcroft.
So, “Americans don’t believe in God” would be okay as a national motto, because after all, it doesn’t say “Americans don’t believe in Jesus Christ”?
Well, God is conspicuously absent from the United States Constitution.
I agree that in this case the problem isn’t necessarily with George W. Bush so much as it is with the standard “traditional” practices of American politics and pubic life.
Doesn’t the Constitution make some reference to some sort of Creator, though?
And heck, we can tell from various sources (I think the Declaration of Independence is one of them…but I’m young, and don’t know for sure. :D) that they obviously based this country on religious grounds.
I just think they knew what they were doing. Heck, I don’t have a study to back it up, but I think it’s safe to say most crimes are committed by non-religious people, and that the increasingly violent crimes tend to be committed by non-religious people as well.
Oh, and for the record, I’m not defending all organized religion - I don’t agree with everything the Catholic church does…I follow the Bible.
No, that doesn’t make it okay. I’m just pointing out that In God We Trust isn’t an exclusively CHRISTIAN sentiment.
I really don’t care if they want to take it off, or leave it on. It doesn’t bother me one way or another, as long as the money spends.
Yep, I’m that crass.
Nope.
Oh, I really think you’d better provide some sort of facts to back up this assertion, and quickly, too, or else withdraw that statement.
I said, quite clearly, that I have no study - I’m simply stating that I think that much is obvious. I havn’t claimed it as fact. Are you saying you disagree? That most murderers, drug-smugglers, and such, are in fact religious?
TWTCommish wrote:
Nope.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/founding-fathers.html
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/argidx.htm
http://www.mainstreamop.org/church2.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/trinity.htm
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm
Thomas Jefferson inscribed, on his tombstone, fellas, and he was the one who talked about God and inalienable rights in the Declaration, that one of his proudest achievements was the section of the Virginia Constition separating church and state.
Before you start invoking the Founding Fathers, you owe it to yourself and your country to learn what they believed.
Methinks the seperation of church and state had a different meaning then - as did a lot of things.
What happened to being endowed with certain unalienable rights by our Creator? Is there any doubt these men were religious?
Oh, and I still stand by my statement towards religion and crime-rates. I am not claiming it as fact - I just think it’s obvious, that’s all. Really. 
I was under the impression you were suggesting the removal of public religious displays was something you supported. It just seems like whenever anything negative can be said against religion some here will nitpick as long as they can. Sometimes it makes me wonder if atheists/skeptics are afraid they’re wrong so they must surround themselves with fellow skeptics or silent believers. Just my observation. Don’t mind me.
What he’s saying is don’t make claims in Great Debates that you can’t back up with a solid cite. And how this digression relates at ALL to whether or not it’s okay for G.W. to include Jesus in his inaguaral ceremonies is completely lost on me.
I don’t think it does - I guess we’ve been sidetracked. My apologies. And yes, I understand a study or something would help, but I don’t think it’s off-limits to say I believe this or that - and I believe that the numbers are much lower.
If you can’t appreciate religion for much, at least appreciate that it promotes a clean, law-abiding lifestyle for the most part, and that those who follow it will truly be an asset to our society.
deism - 1. the belief that God exists an created the world but thereafter assumed no control over it or the lives of people.
2. in philosophy, the belief that reason is sufficient to prove the existence of God, with the consequent rejection of revelation and authority.
Thomas Jefferson considered himself a deist. Slightly different from Christianity, eh?
TWTCommish wrote:
Not only is it not safe to say, but at least as far as Christians go, the statistics show that they don’t engage in moral or immoral behavior any more often than non-Christians on average:
You kiddin’ me? That study talks about giving money to homeless people and buying lotto tickets - I’m talking about crimes - felonies, more specifically (I’m not talking about parking tickets).
The study is about moral vs. immoral behavior. It seems (at least at first glance) to demonstrate that Christians are no more likely to engage in moral, or immoral, behavior than non-Christians are.
If Christianity does not promote a reduction in immoral behavior, what is your basis for assuming that religion “obviously” promotes a reduction in criminal behavior?
I hasten to add that Jeffrey Dahmer, and everyone who’s ever opened fire on or blown up a U.S. abortion clinic, was a devout Christian.
Well, I have a problem with that prayer from the inauguration. Didn’t Graham say something about “Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ”? I wouldn’t have a problem with him thanking God, or a God (we would all know it’s a Christian God, but he should’ve left him “nameless”), but the prayer said “our” implying that the entire county’s savior/lord/god/messiah was/is Jesus Christ. That is not the case. Christianity is not the only religion here, and not everyone believes the same thing. I don’t have a problem with GWB (or Ashcroft) having strong Christian beliefs, they’re entitled to their beliefs as much as I am. The problem I have is when they try to spread (read: force) their beliefs on others. I think Dumbya is parading his Christianity around, and trying to do the whole, “nyah, nyah, I won, I’m a Christian, you have to like it!!! You can’t do anything!”
To recap, I have no problem with God (a deity, as has been mentioned before) being mentioned. It’s just acknowledging a higher power. The problem starts when they specify who that God is.
I’m going to ask you straight out, then: do you believe most serious crimes in this country are committed by Christians, or non-Christians?
As for the study: that’s not too surprising. People sin, Christian or not. One of the main differences is that Christians acknowledge this in a different way, and are accountable to it before God. The study doesn’t debunk Christianity as far as I see.
As for the Dubya jokes: for the last dang time, shouldn’t he be given an actual CHANCE before he’s rapped on like this? Sheesh.
Here’s some statistics (a cite, you should try it sometime) for you.
The results of Christians Vs. Atheists in Prison Investigation
Eating people and bombing seem pretty serious to me. DL Hughley was on PI recently and said something about, “Preachers are the biggest crooks he knows.” I’m sure that, percentage wise, there are just as many “Christian” criminals as there are non-“Christians.”
Considering the circumstances of this election, he’s going to have a damn hard time, everything is going to be extra scrutinized. Especially after this eight year witch hunt on Clinton, you brought it on yourselves.