Yes, I’ve heard of that, but I don’t think it’s circular at all - I can’t see why it doesn’t make any sense to say that if someone has given their lives to Jesus, they simply will not kill someone.
Keep in mind that you, as an atheist, would not believe in supernatural religious things like this - and I would. Our beliefs there make it so that I have no problem believing this, and you do.
Don’t mind me; I’m just here to fight a little ignorance.
Based on descriptions of Old Scottish rituals to summons the clans together. Any similarity between the cross burned and the Christian image of the cross is coincidence.
Most of the ‘genocide’ was inadvertant, and caused by diseases that spread from the Old World settlers. Spanish aims were to steal gold and convert the heathens, not exterminate them. But, if you’d like to believe that the “Roman Catholic Spaniards” committed genocide, you should also put such burdens upon the early United States Presidents, most of whom were Deists- Andrew Jackson and the “Trail of Tears”, for example.
Religious beliefs? Most of the arguments I’ve heard about why the Palestinians deserve a homeland have less to do with “because the Koran tells them to live these” than with “because they were living on the land when the modern Israelis came in and took over”. I think you’ll find most arguments about who has rights to the land has less to do with “God gave it to us” than “The British Government gave it to us”- the bases are cultural more than religious.
I’m not agreeing at all with TWCT’s sentiment that religious people commit less crimes than the non-religious (and agree with Phil’s statement that TWCT’s defining religious partially by ‘people who would not commit crimes’, and thus creating a circular argument that has little to do with reality). However, you’re laying more blame on religion than it really deserves.
I don’t mean to come off as a huge Bush supporter because I’m not, but how does a comment to Dick Cheney about someone being an “Asshole” mean he lacks integrity? Is there an English-speaking adult male on the face of the Earth who hasn’t told a trusted friend that someone’s an asshole? My coworkers and I discuss relative assholosity sometimes. I don’t see a lack of integrity there.
I’m a firm believer in God, but if I were elected to public office I wouldn’t mention Him once, because
A) that’s not the place for it and it wouldn’t be my job,
B) I’m a church/state separation enthusiast, to say the least, and
C) I don’t think it impresses God anyway,
…but the author of the article is right in one sense; the fact that there’s complaint over this is fine in and of itself but it’s very telling that the same people didn’t complain about the same sort of crap from Democrats. I’m blown away that Al Gore can pull a “WWJD?” comment and not get raked over the coals.
I am all for freedom of religious expression. I have no problem with Bush mentioning Jesus nor having prayers read privately. I have no problem with kids having Bible Clubs in school. What bothers me is that Christians seem intent on imposing their religion on the rest of us. There have been countless attempts to legislate Christian prayer in publicly-funded schools, to teach Christian creation mythology as science in publicly-funded classrooms, and
posting excerpts from the Bible in courtrooms and schools.
I support the rights of Christians to exercise their religion, but why don’t they respect that America is not some Shi’ite Baptist (pace Molly Ivins)theocracy?
I personally think we should teach both theories in school and tell the student that no one really knows how the world came to be, and that they should do some research and come to their own conclusion.
It works both ways: I understand the debate against teaching only creationism in school, but what about teaching only evolution and the Big Bang? I don’t like that - teach both and make the kids think on their own.
A pox on me for even mentioning the C word. OK, this will not be a hijack beyond saying that the reason creation science shouldn’t be taught is that it isn’t science, it’s religious dogma. There is no evidence presented, no theories tested: Creation science is based on divine revelation. We might as well present Hindu creation science and say that limestone is really the fossilized remains of the milk from which the world was churned. After all, the Vedas say so, and we know they are Holy Scripture.
Science tells you the how and why of the mechanics of the universe, but it can never give you purpose or faith. That is the province of religion. When you try to make the Bible serve as a biology textbook, you trivialize your faith. Jesus came to serve as the ultimate sacrifice to atone for the sins of humanity, and when you Christians stray from that, you insult Him. By dragging in irrelevant arguments over biology and geology, you take away attention from Jesus and cause people who might otherwise believe to laugh at you. Your duty is to submit to the Holy Spirit to shape you into a divine child of God and to let your lives be witness to God’s transformative power, full stop. Do you really need a godless heathen like me to tell you this?
Maybe I’m just stupid, but I just don’t get what you’re saying. Obviously, as a Christian, I wouldn’t have a big problem with creationism being the only thing taught in school - but I have to be realistic and look at this through secular eyes.
From those secular eyes, both need to be taught. Religion doesn’t offer scientific evidence, but heck, I don’t believe evolution offers much itself - I think there are too many interests involved. We havn’t even decided what composes a healthy diet! And yet, apparently we know this thing is 5 billion years old or that thing is caused by the universe blowing up and expanding, etc. That does not sit well with me.
I see nothing wrong with both being taught as possibilites - because they are both possibilities. You may think religion is insane, but I don’t. I also don’t think evolution is insane, I simply believe something else.
TWT Commish, that “reasoning” doesn’t work. Like everything, there are exceptions. IMO there is a fine line between your idea of “good Christians” and “wackos.”
To get back to the OP, I think this issue kind of goes with that saying about, “the right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins.” GWB is free to have his beliefs, and worship the god of his choice, but when he not only has a prayer, but a specific prayer that thanks “our” Lord and savior Jesus Christ, he goes too far. To me the “our” meant the USA. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that he did this, just another thing to put on the list of arrogant BS he’s pulled after not even receiving a plurality. Not being much of a uniter. Maybe he should actually think over these lines his handlers give him.
To prevent further hijacking, may I suggest that you start a “teaching creation” thread.
Here’s what wrong with the way you claim, “Christians commit fewer crimes than Non-Christians”. You automatically exclude criminals from the class of “Christians”! If you say, “Anyone who commits a crime cannot be a Christian”, then everyone in jail must be a non-christian. Makes no sense.
Do you think the jails are full of Buddhists and Atheists? No, the people in Jail mostly think of themselves as christian.
[stipulate religion mode]
Let me ask you: does being a christian mean that you are incapable of sin? No, of course not, it merely means that you have a way to be saved in spite of sin. We all know that christians sin. Some of those sins are crimes. It is up to God, not you to say that prisoners who consider themselves christians are not. Christianity is supposedly a religion for sinners, right? If you exclude all sinners, membership in your club is going to be vanishingly small, confined to only one person who lived 2000 years ago.
[/stipulate religion mode]
Ugh: can you please at least quote me correctly?
I did not say people who committ crimes cannot be Christian, I said that anyone who would do something serious like murder or rape a bunch of people is not sincere in their faith.
This does not mean sincere Christians won’t abuse their wives, cheat on their spouses, or drive too slow in the fast lane. I’m talking about serious crimes, with very fex exceptions.
Besides, there’s no way 8 out of 10 people in this country are Christian - I have several grandparents who would probably describe themselves that way even though I know they’re not saved.
Well, 99% of my countrie’s (Brazil) population is religious and we have serious crime problems.
By the way the atheistic one per cent left is concentrated on the rich and the midlle class, and they commit less crime.
Abusing one’s wife isn’t a serious crime? Yikes. Care to defend that statement?
Really? Can I ask how exactly you know that? The Bible I own several translations of, and which I’m pretty sure most Christian read, says that only God knows who is and isn’t saved, even among the faithful. Did he, like, tell you? That is soooooooo cool! What was his voice like? I bet it was really deep, wasn’t it?
Alright, drop the sarcasm.
My apologies on the wife-abusing thing - however when I say serious, I generally meant more serious things than that, but yes, I think it should be included - the other two more accurately portray what I was trying to say.
Back to your other point: are you just making stuff up now? Goodness, apparently now I’ve claimed to KNOW that all these people arn’t saved. What else have I said that I don’t know about?
I’m telling you what I THINK. THINK THINK THINK. I don’t think there’s any way 8 out of 10 Americans is a sincere Christian - that number seems far too high. I also believe people have a tendency to call themselves that because they’d feel bad if they didn’t - it doesn’t mean they’re saved.
Um, do you read your own posts? I quoted you, and consarn it, I’m gonna do it again:
Then maybe you should say, “But I don’t think they’re saved” rather than " . . . even though I know they’re not saved." In either case, that’s for God and God alone to decide, not you.
Doesn’t it seem to everyone that when the Democrats are religous(Joe Lieberman), it’s admirable and helpful, but when the Republicans are religous, it’s scary and dangerous?
I admit, I can understand feeling this way. Is it because we feel that Democrats are less passionate with their beliefs and run less a chance of trying to “convert in the line of duty”?
Or is it because we are morons? Well, not us but everyone else that isn’t on the message board. 
Of course that’s for God to decide - meaning he has the final say. This does not prohibit me from having opinions and thinking things like this. When the Bible says not to judge other people, it doesn’t mean in any way whatsoever.
We all dislike liars and tell our children not to do it - but we’ve all lied before. Passing judgements on things is not a sin as long as you don’t ride your high horse around on it.
So, for the last time: it’s what I think. I’m not claiming to be the absolute authority, or that I know it all, or that my way is THE WAY.
Um, back near the beginning of the campaign, when Joe Lieberman said that morality was not possible without God, there where quite a few threads taking him to task over it. Perhaps you missed them. I thought his statement, and his attitutde, were neither admirable nor helpful, and I know a great many SDMBers felt the same way.
TWTCommish: Can you point out which other Bible passages mean something other than what they say? I’m just curious.
See, you’re rehashing arguments we’ve all been through before – “No true Christian would do X, therefore Mr. A is not a true Christian,” “There is no scientific evidence for evolution,” “(Christian)Religion and science should both be taught in science class, but not any other religions” – and they sound no less silly the hundredth time than they did the first 99. I suggest you look through the archives for these threads, and really read some of the things that have been said on them.
It’s a matter of interpretation: when the Bible says “Judge not lest ye be judged”, it doesn’t mean you can’t ever judge anything or anybody. That’s obviously ridiculous. The lying analogy illustrates that point well, I think.
Re: the archives. As it is this conversation is sucking up a significant amount of time, so I don’t have any to spare to go searching for old threads - I’ve read hundreds and participated in dozens on this subject…I’m a little frustrated with the constant sarcasm of this crowd, though.
It’s also frustrating seeing as how it’s a ten-on-one jere, but I can handle it. It’s also frustrating to have people just make things up: did I now say that no other religions should be taught?
I think we should teach the possibility of a God creating this world, our of the world coming into existence on its own, and leave it there. If I said we should teach “Christianity” rather than “Creationism”, then that is a mistake - they sound alike and usually mean similar things.
It perpetuates ignorance and stupidity. There.
Scared of religion? Hardly. But it is a deadweight we’d be better off without.
“Do what I tell you, little Billy, or the Magic Man in the Sky is going to do bad things to you someday.”