Danielinthewolvesden said:
Ummmmm, wasn’t it the new guy that got everyone OT with the “There aren’t as many ‘real’ Christians in the slammer as there are non-Christians. (paraphrase)”
By Punditlisa:
ARGH!!! As has been stated before: That “God” is a deity! At GWB’s inauguration it was said that Jesus Christ was the Lord and savior. That is what I’m (and most people) are upset about!
Yes I work a bit on Sundays - I do my best, however. I think you might be missing my point, which is that I do not defend all organized religion, and yes, I’m sure corruption has taken place at times, as sad as I am to say it.
I suppose the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol either because it come from pagan traditons. You might as well say that the reserection is not Christian because similar stories are found in earlier mid-eastern religious tracts.
Here is a quote from the Ku Klux Klan web page:
[url=“http://www.k-k-k.com/klanhist.html”]
They also mention the Scottish tradition, but tie that in to religion as well:
I guess you are missing my point. I am not blaming religion, I am just saying that religious beliefs do not make you “better” than Atheists. Hey, I used to be an Alter boy.
Dignan- i did not blame anyone for the hijack- it actually evolved- but it seems to me to be too far OT, now. But I am not in charge here, so it was just a request.
spuperhd- You DO know that the OT Law does not apply to Christians, right? if you did not, you do now.
Before everyone gets excited about GWB’s prayer including JC, I would go back and see what the OTHER prayers every other President had said. It would hardly be a surprize to me if JFK’s mentioned JC. If you can tell me, that of the last 10Prezs, at least half did not mention JC, i would be mildly surprized. These are a standard thing- and, even tho I certainly thing GWB is pandering to the Religous Right, i think the Prayer is completely unimportant. Ashcroft as AG, now…whooodoggies!! That budget item for wood for the witchburnings, not to mention the flaming crosses, might eat up ALL the “surplus”. 
Some Christians, of course. 
You know, for me at least, this particular issue really isn’t about GWB. Maybe lots of Presidents, of various theological and political persuasions, have been “getting away with” this stuff for decades. I wasn’t participating on this message board during the last Presidential inauguration. Many people were also irritated at some of the things Democratic Vice Presidential nominee Joe Lieberman said during the campaign; there was a thread about it, as a matter of fact.
Andrew Jackson was a Presbyterian.
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/franklin_steiner/presidents.html#2.1
On the subject of religion and massacres, found the following while browsing for the link above…
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_haught/holy.html
Superhead - if you’d be so kind…and yes, I’ve heard that…
…anyway, I find it odd that so many Christians think the 10 Commandements would be so well suited to the walls of our schools when they don’t apply… I also find it odd that there are two sets of commandments to be found in Exodus… oh hell, I find the whole darn belief system odd, and I was once a believer.
(emphasis mine)
Dignan, hon, if this were YOUR (or Joe Lieberman’s) inauguration, you’d have every right to be upset if the chaplain praised Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
And I would be equally indignant on your behalf.
(Of course, I would have also said, “YOU picked him.”)
sigh Jesus was not just mentioned as GWB’s lord and savior, Graham said “our.” Don’t try to say that by “our” Graham was just referring to his and Bush’s savior. The “our” (as I understood it) meant the entire nation. It was the inauguration of our nation’s president. If Bush was taking some position at a corporation or a private club, then he could say that. This was not a private event.
I would, but it’d be rather longish, and I don’t want to hijack the thread. 
But to appease you, here’s a tad more reasoning–
QED.
Rjung said:
Blind faith was when Indiana Jones took a step off the cliff in The Last Crusade. This example of faith(a leap of faith from the Lion’s head will prove your worth, if you recall) is not what the Bible describes as faith.
The Bible describes faith as being certain of what is unseen. Better yet, when Jesus discusses faith in the Gospels, it includes direct references to evidence. Usually, he asks why his disciples don’t have faith after seeing all his miracles. After seeing his work, faith is the result.
A more practical example of genuine faith would be sitting in a chair and trustig that it will not allow you to fall. Compare that to Indiana Jones leap of faith.
Believing in Christ is not a matter of Blind faith. Faith is the natural act that comes after reviewing the evidence regarding Jesus and responding by believing that what remains unseen is true.
Then, you do not "believe’ in the actual existance of any country you have not personally been to? And, you do not accept any scientific facts unless you, personally have performed the experiment? Whoosh, there goes sub-atomic physics. In fact- most folks have to accept as given that the earth goes around the Sun. I accept LOTS of things on faith- even in science- I have faith that the experimenters are not part of a huge conspiracy, and having us all on.
Oxford; “Ignorant”- “Lacking knowledge or experience”. But that is Ok, Humpty Dumpty thinks "a word means whatever i say it does’- also.
Read that second line again, Daniel – “without proof or testing.” One sub-atomic physicist can claim whatever s/he wants, but if the claims aren’t borne out by other sub-atomic physicists independently testing the claim, it flies out the window. Similarly, just because I haven’t been to France doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, since there are lots of ways for me to test whether or not France is real (reading French newspapers, talking to people who have been to France, examining French vacation snapshots, so on and so forth). And if I was still skeptical about all of this, I could hop on an airplane or a boat, go to France, and see/feel/touch/smell it for myself.
None of this sort of testing occurs in religion; none of this sort of testing can occur in religion. Many fundamentalists are even proud of their ignorance with witticisms like “you do not test God.” That is what makes religion an exercise in ignorance.
Speaking w/r/t relativity, you could also argue that the Sun goes around the Earth, as well.
And if you want more fun, I’ll point you to this essay, by a friend of mine who argues that no one believes in God…
Can YOU prove the existance of sub-atomic particles? You have to accept the wisdom of those more learned than you- who (according to them) have performed experiment that show thse things exist. You take it on faith they are right. But that a religous leader is wrong.
And the fact you CAN go to Paris- does not mean you have. Some claim they have gone to heaven, or spoken to those that live there= but you choose to not beleive them- altho you believe those who say they have 'gone to Paris".
You simply believe & accept on faith what YOU want to believe- and that does not include a god or any religion. Fine- but your “beliefs” are no more “right” than folks who chose to “believe” in a Supreme Being. Your “faith” is Secular Humanism- and there is nothing wrong with that- if it makes you happy, and fulfils YOUR need for a faith. But you are just the same as a zealot when you say “My faith is right, and all others are ignorant”.
Let’s test that.
I’ve just built two bridges. One is made according to established scientific facts, the other according to religious facts.
You have to cross one of the bridges.
Which one do you choose?
Absolutely not. Nothing is preventing me from devoting ten years of my life learning about subatomic particles, building test equipment, conducting tests, and verifying the results. The fact that I don’t do so is only because I’m a lazy bastich, not because subatomic particles don’t exist or some high-n-mighty person tells me I shouldn’t.
Daniel, if you truly believe that religious faith and logical reasoning are fundamentally equal, then you’re much more ignorant that I thought.
Here’s an oncoming train, Daniel; why don’t you step in front of it and let your faith in God save you from being squashed like a Texas armadillo? [I}I* won’t do it because my knowledge of science and physics tells me it’s certain suicide, but since your faith is supposed to be just as valid…
The one built by engineers. However, you have two possibilities for moral guidance, and eternal salvation- one is designed by an engineer, another by the Son of G-d; which do you choose? “Render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasars”- let engineers design bridges & the holy design faiths. I think professionals are best at what they are trained to do- I have great respect for a Plumber, but i wouldn’t have him take out my appendix- nor would I have a MD fix my plumbing.
rjng- nothing is preventing you from spending 10 years learning about G-d on a inner quest for G-d & moral guidance, either. And those who have done so, the 'experts", recommend something we call “faith”.
My “faith” will not stop a train- it is not supposed to. My faith stop a “final death”. You “beleive”- you take many many things on “faith”- we all do. It is just that you insist YOUR “faith” is the “one true way”- does that sound familiar?
Well, that’s just it, isn’t it? I mean, the “holy” and the “experts” tend to be self-appointed. We all know the kinds of training and qualifications and licensing engineers are required to undergo. What qualifications does one have to undergo to become “holy” and get to “design faiths”? How does one become an “expert” on the mind of a deity? How does one become a religious “professional” and what exactly are they “trained to do”?
I would submit that all those things you mention above are absolutely peripheral to coming to any real understanding of the universe, and are instead the trappings of the burdensome human political institutions called “religions.”