# Was J.Edgar Hoover gay? Does it matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2022, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136 "2022-12-07T11:55:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/61 "2022-12-15T01:23:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You can’t be serious. So asexual people are a figment of the imagination? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/62 "2022-12-15T03:49:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What exactly are people objecting to here? From the OP title I would say the “does it matter” angle. From today’s perspective I doubt if anyone cares who J. Edgar Hoover slept with. If he wanted to dress in drag…fine. But… > **Uniquely Nasty: J. Edgar Hoover’s war on gays** > > The directive was stern and uncompromising. In the depths of the Cold War, then-FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover ordered his agents to undertake a new mission: Identify every gay and suspected gay working for the federal government. > > Only Hoover didn’t describe his targets as gays. He called them “sex deviates.” > > SOURCE: [Uniquely Nasty: J. Edgar Hoover’s war on gays](https://news.yahoo.com/uniquely-nasty-j-edgar-hoover-fbi-war-on-gays-152550068.html) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/63 "2022-12-15T13:37:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > From today’s perspective I doubt if anyone cares who J. Edgar Hoover slept with. If he wanted to dress in drag…fine. I’d say it’s more like “… I doubt if anyone _on the Left_ cares …” There are plenty of frothing haters out there today who’d care a lot. And whose image of Hoover as an incorruptible stalwart crimefighting superhero above (beyond?) all political control would be utterly punctured if it became indisputable that Hoover was gay. It’s pretty evident that Hoover’s operational guidance to the FBI was long on chasing gays and short on chasing mobsters. Over multiple decades. If one actually cared then or cares now about the quality of Federal law enforcement, this represented a colossal misappropriation / misapplication of resources. The “mystery” is why that occurred and why no other force in Washington was ever able to alter the FBI’s course. Not Congress, not President, not Supreme Court. Not for nearly 50 years. Until the day Hoover died. Which “mystery” will of course remain mysterious if one screws their eyes tightly shut to the most obvious probability while loudly shouting “La la la. I can’t hear you” with fingers in ears. The humorous thing is how many folks and how strongly can pull this stunt with a straight face claiming no such thing is going on. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/64 "2022-12-15T19:43:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > We have a lot of evidence that Hoover might have been gay. And we have no evidence that he was straight. We have exactly zero evidence he was gay. We do have evidence he was in a relationship with Tolson. That does not mean it was a sexual relationship. There is nary a hint anywhere that the relationship, close as it was- was gay. The assumption that a close relationship must be sexual is false. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/65 "2022-12-15T20:07:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We have exactly zero evidence he was gay. You need to stop saying this, because it’s manifestly untrue. > [@DrDeth](#): > > We do have evidence he was in a relationship with Tolson. That does not mean it was a sexual relationship. There is nary a hint anywhere that the relationship, close as it was- was gay. The assumption that a close relationship must be sexual is false. So it the assumption that a homosexual relationship must be physical. Being gay is about who you love, not just who you fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/66 "2022-12-15T20:13:22Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > So asexual people are a figment of the imagination? One can be both gay and asexual at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/67 "2022-12-15T20:14:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You need to stop saying this, because it’s manifestly untrue. No thank you. Unless this is a Mod Instruction? True, you can have a platonic gay as well as hetero relationship. But other than the fact that Hoover had a deep friendship with another man, there is no evidence he was gay. No secret letters, nothing ever seen by a third party, etc. Nothing other than a close friendship with Tolson. Which makes sense- Hoover was a very private man, and with good reason. Are you saying a gay man can’t have a close long term relationship with a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/68 "2022-12-15T20:15:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We do have evidence he was in a relationship with Tolson. That does not mean it was a sexual relationship. There is nary a hint anywhere that the relationship, close as it was- was gay. The assumption that a close relationship must be sexual is false. Uh huh. And when you see a couple of opposite sex doing all the things together that Hoover and Tolson did together, do you reject any assertion that there is evidence that this couple is straight? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/69 "2022-12-15T20:25:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No thank you. Unless this is a Mod Instruction? No, I’m posting that as a queer person who’s tired of clueless straight people trying to lecture people about queer identities. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Nothing other than a close friendship with Tolson. If you think the public record on Hoover and Tolson describes a “close friendship” and not a romantic relationship, I can only assume that you have little experience with either. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Uh huh. And when you see a couple of opposite sex doing all the things together that Hoover and Tolson did together, do you reject any assertion that there is evidence that this couple is straight? I can guarantee you that **DrDeth** takes the existence of many, many heterosexual relationships at face value with far less evidence than he expects for Hoover and Tolson. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/70 "2022-12-15T20:54:19Z")
A man and his best friend were discussing their married lives. The conversation soon stirred towards their wives’ faithfulness. The man said: “You know, I really trust my wife. And I think she has always been faithful to me. But there is always that doubt.” The friend agreed with him, saying: “Yeah. I know what you mean.” Several weeks later, the man went out of town on a business trip. Before his departure, he entrusted his best friend with the task of spying on his wife to ensure she remained faithful. He voiced: “While I’m away, could you do me a favor? Could you watch my house and see if there is anything fishy going on? I mean, I trust my wife, but there is always that doubt.” The friend agreed to help out, and the man embarked on his two-week trip. Upon his return, he hooked up with his friend and asked for an update. The friend began with a somber face: “I have some bad news for you.” He continued: "The day after you left, I saw a strange car pull up in front of your house. Your wife ran out and the duo entered the house and turned on the light. Peeping through the window, the friend saw the man’s wife making out with the strange man. He recalled: “Your wife was kissing the man. Then he took off his shirt. Then she took off her blouse. Then they turned off the light.” On that note, he ended his story. Unsatisfied, the man probed his best friend for further explanation, demanding: “And then what happened?” The friend shrugged and said: “I don’t know. It was too dark to see.” The man exclaimed: "Damn! You see what I mean? There’s always that doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/71 "2022-12-15T21:28:42Z")
My last post went too far in attacking the poster instead of the post. I apologize for my lapse in judgement, and will step back from posting further in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/72 "2022-12-15T21:42:34Z")
**Miller** has it right. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/73 "2022-12-16T00:01:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But… > > > **Uniquely Nasty: J. Edgar Hoover’s war on gays** > > > > The directive was stern and uncompromising. In the depths of the Cold War, then-FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover ordered his agents to undertake a new mission: Identify every gay and suspected gay working for the federal government. > > > > Only Hoover didn’t describe his targets as gays. He called them “sex deviates.” > > > > SOURCE: [Uniquely Nasty: J. Edgar Hoover’s war on gays](https://news.yahoo.com/uniquely-nasty-j-edgar-hoover-fbi-war-on-gays-152550068.html) Not only did Hoover seem to have a preoccupation with identifying gay people, but (per this source), he took personal affront to any rumor that he, himself, was homosexual. > [@](#): > > One of the documents Francis uncovered is an internal FBI memo to Hoover detailing a March 1952 investigation into a federal employee who was reported to have made a comment at a Washington, D.C., bakery: “Have you heard that the director is a queer?”… > > The remark prompted Hoover to order a full-scale probe of the federal worker, a budget analyst at the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB). The worker was “vigorously interrogated” by FBI agents and warned of his “criminal and civil liability for the making of such statements,” the memo states. The budget analyst “appeared to be badly frightened” by the questioning and promised to never repeat the remark; the bureau’s No. 2 official, Clyde Tolson, recommended only that the analyst’s “activities” be reported to the “proper officials” at the NLRB. (“Yes,” scribbled Hoover in concurrence.) This appears to be substantiated by actual documents. > **[J. Edgar Hoover worked to end the career of a government clerk who had...](https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2017/may/02/j-edgar-hoover-gay-rumors/)** > > An incident from the height of J. Edgar Hoover's reign as FBI Director illustrate the lengths the Bureau would go to squash rumors surrounding Hoover's sexuality - and the dire consequences for those found spreading those rumors. Of course, it means nothing definitive. But it is in an interesting glimpse into Hoover’s concerns. In looking around for information, I also found another interesting tidbit: Clyde Tolson retired from the FBI two days after Hoover’s death. Makes you wonder what his routine was like in those later years of Hoover’s life. I find Tolson’s obituary, from 1975, gives another intriguing account of their relationship. > [@](#): > > Throughout his long associatiion with Mr. Hoover, Mr. Tolson generally managed to avoid publicity, but many people—among them other officials of the F.B.I.—believed he was the only person privy to the details of Mr. Hoover’s activities. > > Like Mr. Hoover, the broad‐shouldered Mr. Tolson was a bachelor. The two men dressed alike in conservative gashion, lunched and dined together almost daily, vacationed together, and enjoyed the race track together. > … > Typically, Mr. Hoover began each day by picking up Mr. Tolson in his chauffeured, bullet‐proof limousine at the latter’s home at about 9 A.M., and before Mr. Tolson’s health began failing, they frequently strolled together for a few blocks along Constitution Avenue before beginning work. > **[Clyde Tolson, Former FBI. Official, Is Dead at 74 (Published 1975)](https://www.nytimes.com/1975/04/15/archives/clyde-tolson-former-fbi-official-is-dead-at-74.html)** > > Clyde A Tolson, former FBI assoc dir, dies at age 74 (M) I also note that, officially, Hoover and Tolson lived apart. Yet Tolson’s apartment was within a short walking distance from Hoover’s house. > **[Own Clyde Tolson’s actual apartment ! Yes, this is FOR REAL !! | Kenneth...](https://kennethackerman.com/own-clyde-tolsons-actual-apartment-yes-this-is-for-real/)** > > The Marlyn building, 3901 Cathedral Avenue NW, Washington, D.C. -- just a short walk from J. Edgar Hoover's own home on 30th Place, NW.Yes it's true. The actual apartment of Clyde Tolson, long-time friend, companion, associate (and more?) of... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/74 "2022-12-16T00:34:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > My last post went too far in attacking the poster instead of the post. I apologize for my lapse in judgement, and will step back from posting further in this thread. Thank you and you know? I have gotten too involved here also, and I apologize if I offended anyone. I will also bow out. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2022, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/75 "2022-12-20T02:03:09Z")
Leaving the truth of the matter aside, the trope has been around a while. I was watching a Law and Order rerun from 1992 this afternoon. The episode was _White Rabbit_, in this episode detectives Logan and Briscoe have clues that have lead them to the perp of a 20 year old murder committed by an anti-Vietnam activist. In one scene, after they e been stonewalled by the FBI, they have this exchange (lightly paraphrased). Briscoe: What do you think the FBI was up to back in 1972? Logan: Buying feather boas for J Edgar Hoover, I imagine. Just FWIW ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/76 "2022-12-25T06:04:48Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The “mystery” is why that occurred and why no other force in Washington was ever able to alter the FBI’s course. Not Congress, not President, not Supreme Court. Not for nearly 50 years. Until the day Hoover died. Is it because Hoover knew all the skeletons in everyone’s closet? Take Hoover down and he takes loads of powerful people down with him. So, leave him be. Even protect and shield him. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2022, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136/77 "2022-12-25T11:47:13Z")
Well yes, of course. Or at least that is very probably the case. Hence my scare-quotes around “mystery”. IOW everybody knew or thought they knew; nobody could or would prove it. IMO Hoover & the Establishment had a mutual suicide pact. Or you could call it a variant of Mutual Assured Destruction. Any attack by one side would result in massive unacceptable retaliation by the other. There could be no attack so instantly devastating as to preclude the other side from retaliating to also devastating effect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-j-edgar-hoover-gay-does-it-matter/976136.md?page=3)