# Was Jesus dying on the cross a meaningful act? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309 "2009-06-19T18:12:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/1 "2009-06-19T18:12:01Z")
I am curious as to what Jesus understood of his own divinity. Speaking with my GF the other day we discussed how Jesus dying on the cross could be meaningful if Jesus knew full well he was God. It is one thing to go to the cross, be tortured and scared out of your mind yet forgive everyone despite all that. It is another to know you are master of the Universe so what does it all really matter? Another instance we pondered was Jesus going into the desert and being tempted by Satan. Again, how can that possibly be meaningful unless Satan had a real chance at winning there? Seems to me, as the son of God (or God if you prefer with the Trinity thing) Satan had quite literally zero chance at success there (if Satan knew Jesus was basically God it is a wonder Satan even bothered). For Jesus so what if Satan pops up? Jesus cannot lose…period. Or at least I find it inconceivable, no matter how you slice it, that there could have been any other outcome. So, if you are God on Earth and you know it then how can you be said to have struggled making your actions meaningful? FWIW, if it helps, I dug up the following biblical cites from another thread where Jesus seems to proclaim his own divinity: \*Matthew 26:63b-64a “The high priest said to Him, ‘I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.’ ‘Yes, it is as you say,’ Jesus replied.” Luke 22:70 “They all asked, ‘Are you the Son of God?’ He replied, ‘You are right in saying I am.’” \* ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/2 "2009-06-19T18:24:00Z")
I remember hearing somewhere that Einstein wasn’t terribly good at math. Is that analogous? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/3 "2009-06-19T18:35:42Z")
Jesus was true God and true man, completely both at the same time. There was a possibility that He could have sinned, but He was tempted as humans are and didn’t succumb. And He \*\*was \*\*scared before the crucifixion–He knew what was going to happen and prayed that He wouldn’t have to go through with it. Ultimately though, He prayed that God’s will be done. To me, what you’re talking about IS the power of the sacrifice He made. Even given that He was God, He allowed Himself to be debased, tortured and killed so we could be saved – that’s huge! ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/4 "2009-06-19T18:36:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Seems to me, as the son of God (or God if you prefer with the Trinity thing) FWIW, the bulk of Christianity is into the Trinity thing. Jesus’ suffering and temptation is meaningful because he is fully God, but he is also fully human. (Hypostatic Union) Anyway, a good summary of how it all fits together is here: [Christology - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christology) ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/5 "2009-06-19T18:36:20Z")
Maybe the point is to demonstrate just that. If you “know” beyond any doubt that you have a reward after death, anything can be endured as it is all temporary? Christians are supposed to have that certainty of destiny based on his sacrifice. BTW IANAC ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/6 "2009-06-19T18:36:34Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I remember hearing somewhere that Einstein wasn’t terribly good at math. Is that analogous? I don’t see why it would be. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/7 "2009-06-19T18:38:11Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Jesus was true God and true man, completely both at the same time. There was a possibility that He could have sinned, but He was tempted as humans are and didn’t succumb. And He \*\*was \*\*scared before the crucifixion–He knew what was going to happen and prayed that He wouldn’t have to go through with it. Ultimately though, He prayed that God’s will be done. > > To me, what you’re talking about IS the power of the sacrifice He made. Even given that He was God, He allowed Himself to be debased, tortured and killed so we could be saved – that’s huge! Ridiculous. As a perfect and infallible God, Jesus could not have succumbed to any of that stuff. You might say he was slumming as a human. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/8 "2009-06-19T18:43:42Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > FWIW, the bulk of Christianity is into the Trinity thing. > > Jesus’ suffering and temptation is meaningful because he is fully God, but he is also fully human. (Hypostatic Union) > > Anyway, a good summary of how it all fits together is here: [Christology - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christology) So Satan could have succeeded in corrupting Jesus when he was in the desert? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/9 "2009-06-19T18:44:55Z")
I think an argument could be made that if Jesus was sure of what would happen, then it is less of sacrifice on his part than not knowing. Dying (in a horrible way) for a _chance_ that good things might then occur is more self-sacrificing than dying knowing for a certainty that it will help, but either way, there’s still the dying horribly part (followed by whatever happened for those two days). I mean, to use a terrible analogy, if you were being bitten to death by ants I don’t think the knowledge that you were immensely greater than they help too much. You’re still being killed. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/10 "2009-06-19T18:45:54Z")
Can someone tell me when “Jesus - The Teenage Years” is going to be released? Or is that going to be tied in wwith his comeback? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/11 "2009-06-19T18:46:43Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Even given that He was God, He allowed Himself to be debased, tortured and killed so we could be saved – that’s huge! Which brings me to the question that I thought this thread was actually going to be about: why? I mean, the whole idea of redemption by the blood sacrifice of God’s son was really only required because God himself made up the whole scheme. Near as I can tell, there was no reason God couldn’t just say, “Okay, never mind, you’re all redeemed. Jesus, go settle down with some nice girl and make Daddy proud.” So why go through with the whole dog and pony show? Was God bound by some universal rules that exceed his authority or something? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/12 "2009-06-19T18:50:59Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Which brings me to the question that I thought this thread was actually going to be about: why? I mean, the whole idea of redemption by the blood sacrifice of God’s son was really only required because God himself made up the whole scheme. Near as I can tell, there was no reason God couldn’t just say, “Okay, never mind, you’re all redeemed. Jesus, go settle down with some nice girl and make Daddy proud.” So why go through with the whole dog and pony show? Was God bound by some universal rules that exceed his authority or something? I think what confuses me is not so much the why but the how. I mean, the symbolic meaning is hugely great, a redeeming act, a return of mankind to some sort of grace. Yet it’s brought about by us performing a horrible act - the torture and killing of God. It really doesn’t seem like the kind of thing we’d get rewarded for. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/13 "2009-06-19T19:00:49Z")
Well I think that it’s indisputably a meaningful act, people find meaning in it every day and have for thousands of years. But yes, I have made the argument too. An immortal who can resurrect themselves is not sacrificing anything. Though it makes a sort of perverse sense if you read the Bhagavad Gita right afterward. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/14 "2009-06-19T19:00:56Z")
It makes as much sense as the idea of animal sacrifice. Jesus’ death apparently ended the requirement for it, and as far as I know… that’s the only thing Jesus’ death really changed. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/15 "2009-06-19T19:02:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So Satan could have succeeded in corrupting Jesus when he was in the desert? I don’t know, but it’s not really relevant. You experience temptation regardless of the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/16 "2009-06-19T19:04:56Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > It makes as much sense as the idea of animal sacrifice. Jesus’ death apparently ended the requirement for it, and as far as I know… that’s the only thing Jesus’ death really changed. A theology professor that I know swears that you must look at it ironically. That Jesus was making a lot of big cosmic jokes. Maybe the point was to show how ludicrous blood sacrifice is. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/17 "2009-06-19T19:08:25Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I don’t know, but it’s not really relevant. You experience temptation regardless of the outcome. That seems more a dodge to me. For an act to be meaningful there needs to be a real chance at an opposite outcome. If Michael Phelps engages in a swim race against opponents who are all quadriplegics would we consider him winning the race in any way meaningful just because Phelps experienced swimming? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/18 "2009-06-19T19:15:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > For an act to be meaningful there needs to be a real chance at an opposite outcome. Who says? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/19 "2009-06-19T19:27:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Who says? Well, I suppose Bill Gates giving a starving child $5 for a meal is meaningful to the child and perhaps you could say that was a nice thing for Bill to do. But on the spectrum of grand gestures I would not hold out Mr. Gates in this case as someone to be admired for it. If another starving child decided to share half the loaf of bread with the other starving child I would see that as a much more profound and grand gesture. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/20 "2009-06-19T19:38:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, I suppose Bill Gates giving a starving child $5 for a meal is meaningful to the child and perhaps you could say that was a nice thing for Bill to do. > > But on the spectrum of grand gestures I would not hold out Mr. Gates in this case as someone to be admired for it. If another starving child decided to share half the loaf of bread with the other starving child I would see that as a much more profound and grand gesture. This is getting a little off topic, but please keep in mind that the good people who developed christology (and soteriology) had a very different perception of time than we do. To them, “God’s time” is completely simultaneous, for the godhead experiences everything at once and in one divine moment. There is no indeterminacy in God’s view because the healing of the cosmic rift by Christ is all part of God’s plan. We just perceive it as a roughly linear series of events. Even if the event itself was predetermined, in a certain way of thinking, it does not make Christ’s passion any less meaningful or real. The drama of the event is entirely internal to Christ. _Non voluntas mea sed tua_ and all. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309.md?page=2)