# Was Jesus dying on the cross a meaningful act? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309 "2009-06-19T18:12:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Auntbeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/101 "2009-06-21T16:04:45Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Uh, the Old Testament Prophet Isaiah wrote that. So they knew about Jesus dying in the old testament? So much regarding Jesus and the crucifixion strike me as a gigantic, un-fun game of “It is my ball and I make the rules.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/102 "2009-06-21T16:11:26Z")
> [@Auntbeast](#): > > So they knew about Jesus dying in the old testament? I’ll bet that’s why they called them _prophets_. Because they could, like, prophecy an’ stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/103 "2009-06-21T16:16:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’ll bet that’s why they called them _prophets_. Because they could, like, prophecy an’ stuff. Funny thing is, when unbelievers like me bring up the inaccuracy of prophecy, we get told that “Oh, they weren’t _really_ called prophets for telling prophecies.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/104 "2009-06-21T16:38:25Z")
Prophets work in mysterious ways. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/105 "2009-06-21T16:49:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Prophets work in mysterious ways. The best ones are in Step 3. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/106 "2009-06-21T16:53:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’ll bet that’s why they called them _prophets_. Because they could, like, prophecy an’ stuff. Like Jesus? And his “prophecy” (I’ll leave the discussion about the use of the term in the bible for another thread) about coming back in the lifetime of some of those around him assembled that day? If that’s the case, then the rapture has already happened and the rest of you Christians are just screwed. Of course, my favorite parts of the bible are when it talks about unicorns and giants. I want a pet giant and unicorn. ☹ Why can’t I have one? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/107 "2009-06-21T17:01:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’ll bet that’s why they called them _prophets_. Because they could, like, prophecy an’ stuff. A prophet was defined as one who was a sort of “channeler” for God – someone who who could supposedly divine God’s will and communicate it, not necessarily as someone who could predict the future (although they sometimes tried). There are no examples of authentically fulfilled predictive prophecy in the OT. The passage from Isaiah (which is mistranslated, incidentally) was not only not about Jesus, but was not a messianic prophecy at all. In fact, it wasn’t even supposed to be a _prediction_. It was a poetic rumination about Israel’s past. The “he” is a personification of Israel. **Friar Ted** was right that the hymn in question was quoting (a Christian translation of) Isaiah, though. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/108 "2009-06-21T17:05:09Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > Of course, my favorite parts of the bible are when it talks about unicorns and giants. I want a pet giant and unicorn. ☹ Why can’t I have one? The giants ate the unicorns, and then died from the horns piercing their stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/109 "2009-06-21T17:06:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Funny thing is, when unbelievers like me bring up the inaccuracy of prophecy, we get told that “Oh, they weren’t _really_ called prophets for telling prophecies.” Well, they weren’t exactly, but that’s still doesn’t explain away why they always failed when they tried. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/110 "2009-06-21T18:02:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If jihadists suicide-bombers are absolutely certain that act will speed them to Paradise, are they brave or not? If they were universally recognized as true sons of Allah by practitioners of that faith, no, IMO, they wouldn’t be. In the real world though, I say they are blind fanatics who derive their “bravery” from their god delusions. Goes without saying they were/are terrorist mother-fuckers no matter what the case. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/111 "2009-06-21T18:54:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The giants ate the unicorns, and then died from the horns piercing their stomach. Damn you! Now my life will remain unfulfilled. RIP Unicorn pet. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/112 "2009-06-22T01:20:52Z")
I think if Jesus death on the cross had meaning it’s that he lived the principles he taught even when his life was on the line. I think he was smart enough to see that what he was doing was life threatening and decided it still needed doing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/113 "2009-06-22T02:13:16Z")
> [@](#): > > I think if Jesus death on the cross had meaning it’s that he lived the principles he taught even when his life was on the line. I think he was smart enough to see that what he was doing was life threatening and decided it still needed doing. Jesus didn’t “live his life”. He is, according to mainstream Chrisitian belief, God. Which means Jesus created the universe, expelled Adam and Eve from Eden, spoke to Moses and Abraham, was crucified, and is still around now (influencing the outcome of sporting events). Jesus/God is eternal and has always been here. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/114 "2009-06-22T12:20:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Jesus didn’t “live his life”. He is, according to mainstream Chrisitian belief, God. Which means Jesus created the universe, expelled Adam and Eve from Eden, spoke to Moses and Abraham, was crucified, and is still around now (influencing the outcome of sporting events). Jesus/God is eternal and has always been here. Did I say I was talking about mainstream Christian belief? Did you have a point? I reject most of mainstream Christian belief as myth. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/115 "2009-06-22T12:52:49Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > And how do you fit a non-omniscient God into your system of belief? The usual way, by assertion. “The ninth god of Sandwich is not omniscient”. Disprove that, if you can, or accept the truth of all you read here! Slightly more seriously, your tone suggests that you believe that all the gods and goddesses have to be omniscient. Why is that? There are plenty of examples (I’m thinking Norse mythology) which prove that some gods are not omniscient (or at least, not all the time). That’s mighty hard evidence! Blessings Sandwich ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/116 "2009-06-22T13:59:03Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > The usual way, by assertion. “The ninth god of Sandwich is not omniscient”. Disprove that, if you can, or accept the truth of all you read here! > > Slightly more seriously, your tone suggests that you believe that all the gods and goddesses have to be omniscient. Why is that? There are plenty of examples (I’m thinking Norse mythology) which prove that some gods are not omniscient (or at least, not all the time). That’s mighty hard evidence! Certainly the assumption of Christianity as a whole is that God is omniscient. Very few denominations depart from this belief. Personally I’ve no investment in believing in any sort of omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being. Limited higher-order beings seem much more likely, in a theoretical sense. Not that I’ve seen any evidence of their existence either. Powers greater than myself? Sure, lots of them exist. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/117 "2009-06-22T14:05:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Did I say I was talking about mainstream Christian belief? Did you have a point? > > I reject most of mainstream Christian belief as myth. If you’re going to depart from mainstream Christian belief in a discussion on Jesus, then you should at least mention that you’re doing so. It would be even better if you’d explain how your beliefs differ from the mainstream so people know what you’re discussing. As for a point, this is a thread on beliefs about Jesus so I think it was on-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/118 "2009-06-22T16:42:28Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > It pays the bill if the one in Hell is The Eternal God. > > Actually, the bill was paid at His death. His death cry “It is finished” was the Greek word "Tetelestai’ which was used when a criminal had completed his punishement and was freed. The ‘three days in Hades’ was His rescue mission to evangelize the departed spirits. OK, if physical death is all that is required to pay the price for sin, then at the end of my life, when I die, I will have paid the price for my own sin, and can enter heaven knowing that I paid the price myself. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/119 "2009-06-22T16:46:25Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think if Jesus death on the cross had meaning it’s that he lived the principles he taught even when his life was on the line. I think he was smart enough to see that what he was doing was life threatening and decided it still needed doing. I’m suggesting it is not as big a deal to do something life threatening when you know you are immortal and eternal (as mainstream Christian belief has him). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309/120 "2009-06-22T17:12:15Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > OK, if physical death is all that is required to pay the price for sin, then at the end of my life, when I die, I will have paid the price for my own sin, and can enter heaven knowing that I paid the price myself. > > Right? I didn’t say that. Jesus didn’t just suffer physical death. I said that He paid the price by the time He died physically. He also experienced the real agony of Hell when He cried “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” The ‘three days in Hades’ were distinct from His actually experiencing Hell. And even if physical death cancelled out your sin, all that means is that you would die & not experience any further punishment. That does not mean you would be guaranteed an Afterlife or Immortality or Resurrection. Immortality & Resurrection are in Jesus Christ alone and one must be among His people in order to be guaranteed them. Now, I believe that there will be an Afterlife for all in which all will be graciously offered that opportunity of joining Him, provided they have not knowingly and definitively rejected that offer in this life. I have no way of knowing who is or isn’t in such a condition. All I can advise is not to risk it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-dying-on-the-cross-a-meaningful-act/500309.md?page=7)