# Was Jesus in an end-of-the-world cult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2001, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212 "2001-11-08T16:18:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/21 "2001-11-08T18:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*What the hell am I, chopped liver? 😉 > > > [@](#): > > > > [Jesus] certainly made references to the world eneding. Do the phrases “wailing and gnashing of teeth” and “furnace of fire” mean anything to you? > > I find it an enormous stretch of the imagination to read Christ’s words in contect and claim he was talking about an apocalypse. \*\* I think it’s abundantly clear that no one cares what you think in this thread, **andros**. 😃 😉 kidding, kidding…much love… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/22 "2001-11-08T18:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > So your argument (you are correct, I didn’t properly address it the first time, I was responding to the EOTW thing) that S/A were killed by the Apostles for not coming up with the money is incorrect. They were killed by God for lying to God. I hesitate to try to clarify a **Lolo** point - but then, Christ does command charity. I think **Lolo** is suggesting that it’s inherently incredible that God killed them under such circumstances. That if we heard a story like that today, we’d immediately discount the lunatic-fringe-God-killed-'em business, and focus on Peter and his crowd as primary suspects. After all, they were defrauded. What makes more sense, **Lolo** asks - that these people were killed by a vengeful invisible power in the sky, or that the Apostles, irked at not getting all the gelt they deserve, offed the cheating pair? Perhaps **Lolo** means to ask, “Why is the story told in Acts immediately accepted by many Christians as God’s work - but if a similar story were told today, to those same Christians… by a defendant as a defense, while they were serving on a jury… surely most of them would waste no time voting ‘guilty’.” Beats me. As often seems to happen with **Lolo** ’s threads, I find myself constructing what I think is the argument he might be trying to make, and then defending or attacking it. What he actually means is known only to **Lolo** himself, and perhaps The Emperor. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/23 "2001-11-08T18:37:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > many times, in end-of-the-world cults, cult members sell their possesions in anticipation the world is about to end. Does this chapter suggest such activity? > > No. Here is an enormous leap of logic. You go from what seems to an an unexplained death - as long as supernatural soures are excluded - to a generalized statement about end-of-the-world cults, and ask us to draw an inference from this.\*\* It’s really not an enormous leap in logic, **Rick**. Jesus makes numerous statements about the end of the world in the gospels(e.g. matthew 24). If we’re going to use the gospels as evidence of Jesus’ followers and his friends, we must look at what is happening surrounding both his life and death. And I’m made a generalized statement about end-of-the-world cults, b/c I don’t think all cults follow strict guidelines, like the ones found in your usual end-of-the-world-cult-official-handbook. \*\* > [@](#): > > It’s not a supported inference. If you offered a quote form Peter that had him telling Joe Blow, “Verily, the end of the world is at hand, so sell your possessions,” you’d certainly have some strong inferential evidence.\*\* No, I don’t have that. But I have to people dead b/c they didn’t cough up the cash from the sale of the property. So again, what’s more likely? who more likely killed Ananias and Sapphira? \*\* > [@](#): > > But the mere existence of a couple who sold something, gave a pportion of the money to the Apostles, and were struck down does not support an inference that early Christians were an end-of-the-world cult.\*\* The mere existence of any single passage in the bible also does not suggest Jesus was God, but many people believe that. However, a collection of passages do suggest things, don’t they? \*\* > [@](#): > > However, there is considerable credible evidence that Jesus thought the end of the world was at hand, or at least coming along shortly. I don’t buy it, but it’s credible - or at least consists of reasonable inferences. Since I’m not here to do your work for you, however, I guess you’ll simply have to wonder what it might be.\*\* **Bricker** , who asked you to do my work for me? I gave one passage get things started and you came here with an agenda b/c you don’t like me. You made a bunch of crude points b/c you imagined I’d be w/o answers. If you don’t want to contribute, fine. I don’t care. \*\* > [@](#): > > By the way, if I had put forth either proposition - Christianity was, or was not, and end-of-the-world cult, I’d be obligated to disclose my evidence. But I’m merely responding to the question, does a particular passage of Acts support the inference that early Christianity was and end-of-the-world cult. > > And the answer is no. > > - Rick > > P.S. - **Lolo** , learn how to frame an argument and support a position. Please. \*\* what a waste of cyber space. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/24 "2001-11-08T18:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > I find it an enormous stretch of the imagination to read Christ’s words in contect and claim he was talking about an apocalypse. \*\* I get the end-of-the-world impression out of the following, hardly stretching imagination at all. > [@](#): > > Matthew 24:29 > 'And immediately after the tribulation of those days,\*\* the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;\*\* > > Matthew 24:30 > and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; > > Matthew 24:31 > and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof. > > Matthew 24:32 > 'And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: When already its branch may have become tender, and the leaves it may put forth, ye know that summer [is] nigh, > > Matthew 24:33 > so also ye, when ye may see all these, ye know that it is nigh – at the doors. > > Matthew 24:34 > Verily I say to you, this generation may not pass away till all these may come to pass. **Nuerotik** , sorry to quote so much. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/25 "2001-11-08T18:48:40Z")
**Bricker** I’m sure that you are correct, and I was pretty sure that’s what he was making. But I can’t really debate a point that has hypotheticals as evidence. If I was in a court of law and the defendent gave this testimony, is it more likely that Peter killed the person? Sure. I’ll agree with that. But if you are going to then go on to say Xianity = EOTW cult based on that, then that’s where I’m going to step on the brakes. The conclusion has just been reached on a series of hypotheticals and assigned motivations that have nothing backing them up except speculation. That goes also for his assertion: > [@](#): > > \*\*But these are the people Jesus associated with, yes/no? And if they’re collecting possesions and killing people after Jesus suggests what he suggests in Matthew 24… perhaps they are making preparations for the apocalyse. \*\* That’s just speculation, not a reasoned argument that I can actually debate. Perhaps they were making preparations. Perhaps not. But the same source that he is taking the whole thing from specifically states that they were doing it for the community, and makes no mention of the motivation being EOTW. So, unless another source that doesn’t rely on speculation comes out and says they did it in preparation for the apocalypse, then I am going to have to assume that that wasn’t actually the motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/26 "2001-11-08T19:23:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > You made an error. Ananias and Sapphira don’t get killed because they didn’t produce the amount of money Peter suspected the property was worth. It specifically states that the two weren’t being honest and kept some of the portion of the sale for themselves. So there is no speculation on Peter’s part. > > And it’s not a matter of coming up with the cash, like they had a specific amount that they had to go raise. They sell their possessions and pool it so that no one is needy. Again, nothing to do with EOTW. > > As for your assumption that it was Peter that killed them over the money. They weren’t killed for the money. They were killed for the deception. It says that. Acts 5:4. So there goes the argument. > \*\* I say this like Ben Affleck says “retainer” in Good Will Hunting. “Semnatics.” “SEMAAAAAAAANTIIIIIIIIIIICS!” “Your situation… fuh you…” I digress. They were being **dishonest** about the **money** they didn’t come up with. So, in essence, we’re both equally right. \*\* > [@](#): > > So let’s sum up. > > 1. The early Christian community pooled its resources not in anticipation of the end of the world, but to ensure that no one wanted for anything in the community. Acts 4:32+\*\* Not only were they in an end-of-the-world cult… they were commies! red bastards! but seriously, I think there was more going on than that. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. S and A were killed not because they didn’t come up with a certain amount of money, but because they lied to God. Acts 5:4.\*\* or, they lied to Peter about the cash and he killed them and buried them. open to interpretation… \*\* > [@](#): > > So your argument (you are correct, I didn’t properly address it the first time, I was responding to the EOTW thing) that S/A were killed by the Apostles for not coming up with the money is incorrect. They were killed by God for lying to God. \*\* or, they were killed by Peter b/c they didn’t cough up the dough. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/27 "2001-11-08T19:43:01Z")
Well, if we are going to INFER things about these verses, maybe after the shock of getting caugh cheating not only the brethern in the commune but God himself, poor old Ananias had a heart attack and died. When his wife came in, Peter confronted her as well and knowing that she had a weak heart as well, said that her husband had dies and the pall bearers are at the door for her (a scare tactic to get her to confess) and her poor old heart stopped as well. no one was murdered or smote, it was natural causes. I mean, if we are inferring things… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/28 "2001-11-08T19:50:47Z")
:shrug: I’ve never really thought that Matt 24 necessarily described the “end of the world” as such. The end of the world as we know it, yes, but Jesus certainly doesn’t call for people to go out and kill themselves. On the contraty, he enjoins his followers to remain vigilant and faithful. But I can certainly see how one might see this as an apocalyptic passage, especially when coupled with some of John’s more . . . interesting prophecy in the Revelation. But as I said, I’ve never seen it that way. But then even if I were Christian, I’d not be inclined to read prophecy literally. And Matt 24 sure has the prophetic ring to it (telling a parable and quoting Daniel and Isaiah make a difference too). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/29 "2001-11-08T19:53:18Z")
The question in the thread title deals with **Jesus**. Not what Peter might have been up to, or what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. Are you conceding that Jesus rose from the dead and masterminded whatever went on, **Lolo**? Or can you adduce evidence that implies **Jesus** was involved in an apocalyptic cult? Or is this another case of your interest in ridiculing Christianity? Choose one, please. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/30 "2001-11-08T19:54:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > **What is more likely? That Peter and his goons 😉 killed S and A, or that God killed S and A?** You are leaving out another option. Myth. Acts is full of myth. Or, in more modern terms, Urban Legend. Your quote of Matthew 24:34 is an interesting quote. It does seem to indicate that Jesus thought the world was about to end. Or, it could indicate that the later chapters of Matthew were also Myth. Once more for you, **Lolo** , Jesus’ message was “Love God, Love Everyone”. If any religious rule or preacher or practice contradicts these two, then you can ignore that rule. If any quote attributed to Jesus in the New Testament contradicts those laws, then you can be sure the quote is not authentic. If Peter, Paul, the Pope, Jerry Falwell or I say something that contradicts these two laws, then we are talking out of our asses. Jesus, however, wasn’t the only Jew who taught that message. Rabbi Hillel (60 BCE-9 CE) said > [@](#): > > That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it. What is important is not the historical facts, but Jesus’ message. Once you understand this you might be able to get past your anger towards Christianity. That said, I will agree that you can reasonably interpret the early Church believed the end of the world was near. Whether that makes them a Doomsday Cult is another issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/31 "2001-11-08T20:19:34Z")
_Poly_;Or can you adduce evidence that implies Jesus was involved in an apocalyptic cult? **Polycarp** , were Jesus and Peter not tight? Does Jesus seem to talking about the end of the world in Matthew 24? I’m not being as flippant and non-sequitur as you’re all suggesting. Stop pretending like I’m completely unjustified in my questioning in some of the biblical events. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/32 "2001-11-08T20:25:01Z")
Lolo, question the bible and jesus and christianity and the unimpressive world of religion all you want…we have people on this boards who do it every day. The point is, your argument is flimsy. What we have is 1. One anecdote from the book of Acts that SEEMS to indicate that someone died from not coughing up cash. 2. One verse from Matthew that you seem to think sums up the end of the world. 3. The fact that Peter and Jesus were friends and 1. The fact that some cults sell possessions to preclude the end of the world. Put it all together and you get…nothing. jar ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/33 "2001-11-08T20:27:12Z")
Then whole bible is full of myths. One could easily say **everything in the bible is myth**. That was the point of this excercise. It’s just a discussion about the possibility that Jesus was in an end of the world cult. You people bitch and complain when I mock and disparage, and now when I try to have a discussion you bicth and complain yet again. You’re so attached to Jesus, it’s frightening. Any implication that maybe he wasn’t so great is dismissed b/c “oh that’s myth”, “that wasn’t Jesus’ message”, “you’re not interpreting it correctly” But what can be expected from a bunch of people in a cult? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/34 "2001-11-08T20:28:54Z")
Peter was a _follower_ of Jesus prior to the Crucifixion. I would not read this as “they were best buds.” Later, he became the leader of the 12 Apostles, and, tradition has it, first Bishop of Rome. Scripture indicates that **God** struck down A & S for holding back money _after claiming they were contributing all their worldly goods to the Church-in-Jerusalem pot_. It would appear that they had a choice whether or not to do so, but that they did not have the option of hanging onto a nest egg if they claimed to be giving all. Accusations against Peter may or may not be valid in a secular worldview, but you’d have to suggest that the evidence _against_ him is subject to dispute too. Either the Book of Acts is correct in saying they gave part but not all their money, and God offed them for lying, or else the Book of Acts is not correct, and all the story is, is another urban legend. Either way, Peter does not stand culpable of anything more than preaching in public. You and **Eternal Student** are, I believe, “tight,” to use your terms. He trolled, and was banned. Does this indict **you, Lolo?** I’d be inclined to say not. But by the same argument, whatever went on with Peter later does not indict Jesus – unless He was still around and giving Peter guidance, as claimed. You cannot have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/35 "2001-11-08T20:35:44Z")
Mark’s version of the doomsday prophesies of Jesus can be found in [Mark Chapter 13](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MARK+13&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on). And **andros** , I don’t see how you can look at [Matthew Chapter 24](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=matthew+24&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english) and not see it as a doomsday prophesy. Sample: > [@](#): > > 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. > 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. > 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. What do you think he’s talking about there? ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/36 "2001-11-08T20:40:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*Lolo, question the bible and jesus and christianity and the unimpressive world of religion all you want…we have people on this boards who do it every day. > > The point is, your argument is flimsy. > > What we have is > > 1. One anecdote from the book of Acts that SEEMS to indicate that someone died from not coughing up cash. > > 2. One verse from Matthew that you seem to think sums up the end of the world. > > 3. The fact that Peter and Jesus were friends > > and > > 1. The fact that some cults sell possessions to preclude the end of the world. > Put it all together and you get…nothing. > > jar \*\* no, you get something alright. DENIAL. Christian DENIAL. ---
**Author:** ![Ikujinashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ikujinashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ikujinashi)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/37 "2001-11-08T20:41:52Z")
Disregarding Lolo’s attacks, can we refocus on the OP? Like most of the posters to this thread, I think Lolo is reading a bit much into the account of Annanias and Sapphira. Two people died, there was a disagreement about money from property that was sold to support commune style living. This neither supports nor detracts from the suggestion that they were part of an end-of-the-world cult. Lolo’s also been plenty vague about what he/she means by end-of-the-world cult. Unless Lolo objects I’ll describe what I think makes something an end-of-the-world cult: - cult just means this a group of a spiritual nature (basically agreeing with **plnnr** that the distinction between cult and religion is in the eye of the beholder) - end-of-the-world refers to a drastic change - the end of the world as we know it (I feel fine) - this drastic change will be in the near future (all but the oldest members of the group will live to witness this event) So, did Jesus have this end-of-the-world mentality? Did early Christians? Matthew 24 is a prediction of tumultuous events. I think they fit the bill of the end of the world. The sun being darkened, the heavenly bodies shaken, the entire world mourning. Will it be soon? This is where the debate comes in, I think. Because of Matthew 24:34, I think Jesus believed that the end was nigh. As for the early Church, Paul seemed to believe the end was nigh as well. 1 Corinthians 7 (especially 7:29-31) indicates he felt the end was imminent. Whether or not Paul’s beliefs reflect upon Jesus’ beliefs is another debate I think. Despite the poor choice of words in the OP, I’ll answer yes, Jesus was in an end-of-the-world cult (as far as the founder of a religious group can be ‘in’ that group). What are the implications of this? I’m pretty sure that before getting sidetracked about who really put the hit on A & S, Lolo was going to drive at the point that: - Jesus thought the world was going to end very soon - It didn’t - Therefore Jesus was wrong, not infallible, not God Given the premise, I think the logic is sound. So, is there an error in the premise? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/38 "2001-11-08T20:42:37Z")
Hmmm. There seems to be a lot of simmering hostility toward **Lolo**. I don’t know what he may have been up to in other threads, since I don’t get into the religious debates too often, but it does seem that here at least he was attempting a rational debate. Why all the venom? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/39 "2001-11-08T20:49:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > **Then whole bible is full of myths. One could easily say everything in the bible is myth**. You are right. One could easily say that. And be correct. From Merriam-Webster Online. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: myth > Pronunciation: 'mith > Function: noun > Etymology: Greek mythos > Date: 1830 > 1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : PARABLE, ALLEGORY > 2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society \ Being myth, however, does not empty it of containing Truth. At the very least the story of Jesus, particularly his Royal Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount, gives insight on a fairly positive way to live life. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212/40 "2001-11-08T20:52:01Z")
Jesus apparently had some concept of a disaster-movie set of events that would happen at some time in the future. However, the quotations from Matthew that suggest he set a time and place should not be accepted. Matthew as we have it is apparently not the book written by Matthew Levi, one of the 12, of which Papias said, “First Matthew set forth the _logia_ of Jesus, though not in order.” As used here, _logia_ means “words” in the metaphorical sense of “teachings, oracles, inspirational statements.” (The strict plural would be _logoi_.) Clearly an account of Jesus’s life and teachings that begins with a birth story (attn. Fenris: opportunity for an Origins of Jesus story) and concludes with post-Resurrection appearances is not a collection of _logoi_. Nearly 90% of Mark is repeated verbatim in Matthew, with very minor wordage changes, such as “Kingdom of God” becoming “Kingdom of Heaven.” Most modern scholars think that the mysterious Q document, otherwise unattested, was a collection of Jesus’s teachings depended on by Matthew and Luke. However, aside from parallel teachings in those two gospels, there is no evidence for the existence of Q. I suspect strongly that the original Matthew book is the real analog of Q, and was discarded after being redacted with Mark as a frame story. Most of Jesus’ teachings included in Matthew are in five large globs that appear to be structured on the basis of content. These would be taken verbatim from Q or ur-Matthew. Luke contains the vast majority of these teachings, but sometimes in quite different contexts and carrying quite different meanings given the context. Classic examples are “Blessed are the poor” in Luke vs. “…poor in spirit” in Matthew, and the quite different implications of the variant Parables of the Talents in the two gospels. Luke places all this material in scattered places throughout his gospel. Why? Check out Luke 1:1-4 – where he says explicitly that others have tried to tell the story and he’s researched out what happened when and what was said when, and is now reporting that. What this means, however, is that the Matthew predictions of the Last Days are by no means to be relied on as actual teachings of Jesus, particularly as they fall into context with each other. Whenever there’s doubt, prefer Luke’s reading. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-in-an-end-of-the-world-cult/92212.md?page=3)