# Was Jesus Literate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254 "2011-02-05T04:16:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/121 "2011-02-14T23:37:06Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Sort of like speelling in English? More than that because you’re much more likely to be texting in either katakana (syllabic script) or Romaji (Latin alphabet) rather than Kanji. * * * **TokyoPlayer** : 9000 or 900? I was under the impression that you had to learn about 2000 by the end of high school. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/122 "2011-02-15T01:04:19Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Sort of like speelling in English? [/quote] Exactly. Pattern recognition is much easier for humans than pattern generation. If you take a kanji such as 臓, you can see how much easier is to remember how to say it than how to write it. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > More than that because you’re much more likely to be texting in either katakana (syllabic script) or Romaji (Latin alphabet) rather than Kanji. Except now with predictive programing on cell phones, the kanji come up right away so it’s much easier to write in kanji than in English with Japanese cells. My foreign friends and I will sometimes text in Japanese because it’s actually faster than spelling out in English. No one uses _hiragana_ or _katakana_ exclusively for texting because it’s too confusing since there aren’t spaces between the words. > [@](#): > > **TokyoPlayer** : 9000 or 900? I was under the impression that you had to learn about 2000 by the end of high school. :smack: 900 then they will learn a couple thousand in high school. There are about 1900 standard kanji, and they have to be learned by the end of junior high. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/123 "2011-02-15T23:44:12Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > Except now with predictive programing on cell phones, the kanji come up right away so it’s much easier to write in kanji than in English with Japanese cells. My foreign friends and I will sometimes text in Japanese because it’s actually faster than spelling out in English. Predictive kanji? I can’t even do predicitive Latin script!!! ---
**Author:** ![eelbrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@eelbrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eelbrain)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/124 "2011-04-13T01:23:55Z")
[Bruce Chilton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Chilton), in [Rabbi Jesus](http://www.amazon.com/Rabbi-Jesus-Biography-Bruce-Chilton/dp/0385497938/), states that most people in Nazareth at the presumed time of Jesus were illiterate. He does state that Jesus’ half-brother, James, was literate, due to studying at a synagogue. Jesus did not study in the synagogue and began working with Joseph when he was 10, according to Chilton. The fact that there are no known writings of Jesus could be seen as an indication he could not read or write. Since the Jewish religion was largely encountered as an oral tradition at the time, understanding and mastery of spiritual concepts did not necessarily require literacy. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/125 "2011-04-13T01:29:24Z")
Of course Jesus was literate. He was a rabbi. I can’t imagine an analphabet rabbi! ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/126 "2011-04-13T02:02:18Z")
Wouldn’t he speak Aramaic, though? It’s possible that a contact language arose between the Romans and the peoples of Biblical Palestine and this is how he could have conversed with Romans. Or maybe he knew several languages - or at least enough of other languages. For all we know, he had a translator. :o I can’t imagine a Jewish theologian being illiterate. Hmmm. Since the Oral Law wasn’t written until post-Jesus, I don’t know if it’s a fair assessment to say he couldn’t read or write because we have no written works from him. And it’s entirely possible that none survived. We have a 20 year gap in the life of Jesus. What was he doing? Reading Hebrew? Maybe. Since it’s highly probable that he studied with the Essenes (or interacted with them) _and_ he was a Jewish philosopher/rabbi/teacher _and_ he was radical enough to be seen as a threat (perhaps this guy was educated, no?), I’d vote “yes” to the OP’s question. It sounds pretty logical to assume Jesus was literate if he were supposedly a first-rate Torah scholar. :o ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/127 "2011-04-13T02:13:52Z")
He would have spken Aramaic yes. The “contact” language with the Romans would have been Greek, which was the lingua franca in the provinces. There is no evidence that he studied with the Essenes, and the Gospel accounts have him doing things which are out of sync with Essene practices (like drinking wine). The fact that the gospels sometimes have him being addressed as “rabbi” does not mean much, since that word did not yet have the formal sort of clerical meaning that id does now. Any itinerant preacher could be called “rabbi.” That title took on its modern meaning only after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, and the religious focus of Judiasm shifted away from the Temple (which didn’t exist any more) and to the study of the Tanakh. That’s when rabbis starting taking on more authoritative and formal roles. Before that, the authority was with the priests. in short, just because someone was called “rabbi” in 1st Century Galilee didn’t mean they had any formal study or ordination. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/128 "2011-04-13T02:48:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He would have spken Aramaic yes. The “contact” language with the Romans would have been Greek, which was the lingua franca in the provinces. I didn’t know that Greek was a _contact_ language. Interesting. Aramaic is a Semitic language, so how did this Greek contact language come about? What was the other language? Yeah, I’m being snarky. > [@](#): > > There is no evidence that he studied with the Essenes, and the Gospel accounts have him doing things which are out of sync with Essene practices (like drinking wine). Where does Jesus drink wine? > [@](#): > > The fact that the gospels sometimes have him being addressed as “rabbi” does not mean much, since that word did not yet have the formal sort of clerical meaning that id does now. Any itinerant preacher could be called “rabbi.” That title took on its modern meaning only after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70, and the religious focus of Judiasm shifted away from the Temple (which didn’t exist any more) and to the study of the Tanakh. That’s when rabbis starting taking on more authoritative and formal roles. Before that, the authority was with the priests. > > in short, just because someone was called “rabbi” in 1st Century Galilee didn’t mean they had any formal study or ordination. …I know that. Why are you trying to give me a Jewish history lesson? The reason why I refrained from saying “preacher” is because that implies some kind of Christian connotation. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/129 "2011-04-13T02:49:24Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > We read the thread we just don’t beleive it. I’ve checked 11 modern version of the bible (10 through Bible Gateway and 1 at the Vatican) in three languages and all include the passage. Can you point to versions that don’t include it? I checked the 2 versions laying around. I was surprised. The NIV, which is a well respected, popular version, has it in a box with a discussion about it may be added later. The slightly older Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly translation includes it without even a footnote. Modern translations such as the NIV are considered more accurate than the KJV because they are based on older texts. Is it possible in ancient times they too found older texts which have since disappeared? It is hard to take seriously a discussion that denies all the extra Biblical evidence of the historic Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/130 "2011-04-13T03:00:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > and the religious focus of Judiasm shifted away from the Temple (which didn’t exist any more) and to the study of the Tanakh. That’s when rabbis starting taking on more authoritative and formal roles. Before that, the authority was with the priests. That’s not exactly true. To say that religious Judaism shifted from Temple to Tanakh implies that it was never on the Tanakh to begin with. Hillel was before Jesus’ time, and he wasn’t part of the priestly class. Not _all_ authority reigned with priests. There were different sects of Judaism. I’m not saying that our modern synagogues are like ones of old, but you’re a little sketch in your timeline. Synagogues existed before the destruction of the Second Temple. _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/131 "2011-04-13T03:08:42Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > …I know that. Why are you trying to give me a Jewish history lesson? The reason why I refrained from saying “preacher” is because that implies some kind of Christian connotation. Should clarify: a Rabbi (or dayan) would have been a teacher of the Torah. But I take Greek transliterations with a grain of salt. 😛 If the Christian Bible calls Jesus a rabbi, it’s a hefty suggestion that they thought him to be literate. Again, there were literate sages before Jesus, such as Hillel. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/132 "2011-04-13T03:59:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I didn’t know that Greek was a _contact_ language. Interesting. Aramaic is a Semitic language, so how did this Greek contact language come about? What was the other language? " Contact" langiage was yours. I didn’t know what you meant by that term, but it was the mediating language between the Romans and the Jews. > [@](#): > > Where does Jesus drink wine? Well, it’s pretty clearly implied in John 2 (the water into wine story), and stated explicitly in Matthew 26:29. > [@](#): > > …I know that. Why are you trying to give me a Jewish history lesson? The reason why I refrained from saying “preacher” is because that implies some kind of Christian connotation. What’s specifically Christian about? There were Jewish preachers. Jesus was a Jewish preacher. My point was that this did not mean he had any formal ordination in the modern sense. It is highly unlikely that he would have had any formal education. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/133 "2011-04-13T04:02:17Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > That’s not exactly true. To say that religious Judaism shifted from Temple to Tanakh implies that it was never on the Tanakh to begin with. Hillel was before Jesus’ time, and he wasn’t part of the priestly class. Not _all_ authority reigned with priests. There were different sects of Judaism. > > I’m not saying that our modern synagogues are like ones of old, but you’re a little sketch in your timeline. Synagogues existed before the destruction of the Second Temple. _shrug_ I didn’t say the study of Tanakh didn’t have any importance, but it did not become the _central focus_ of Jewish worship until after 70. I also never said that synagogues didn’t exist before then. They certainly did. Please don’t invent things I never said. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/134 "2011-04-13T04:04:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “Contact” langiage was yours. I didn’t know what you meant by that term, but it was the mediating language between the Romans and the Jews. I meant two groups with different L1s that develop some kind of contact language - swapped words, pidgin, creole, whatever. > [@](#): > > Well, it’s pretty clearly implied in John 2 (the water into wine story), and stated explicitly in Matthew 26:29. Can you pull that up for me in whatever translation you think is best? > [@](#): > > What’s specifically Christian about? There were Jewish preachers. Jesus was a Jewish preacher. My point was that this did not mean he had any formal ordination in the modern sense. It is highly unlikely that he would have had any formal education. The word “preacher” is generally reserved for the Christian faith. Comparable to “Imam” and “Rabbi”. Curious - why is it highly unlikely? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/135 "2011-04-13T04:08:20Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Should clarify: a Rabbi (or dayan) would have been a teacher of the Torah. It just meant “teacher.” Not necessarily of torah, and the word used in the Gospels is ῥαββί, not a transliteration of _dayan_. > [@](#): > > But I take Greek transliterations with a grain of salt. The transliteration is from _rabh_ to _rhabbi_. What do you think it SHOULD be? > [@](#): > > 😛 If the Christian Bible calls Jesus a rabbi, it’s a hefty suggestion that they thought him to be literate. No it isn’t/. That word just generically meant “teacher” or “master.” It was a general honorific, not a clerical title. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/136 "2011-04-13T04:08:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say the study of Tanakh didn’t have any importance, but it did not become the _central focus_ of Jewish worship until after 70. I also never said that synagogues didn’t exist before then. They certainly did. **Please don’t invent things I never said.** Jewish worship? That’s an odd use way to characterize it. I’m not inventing things. I’m suggesting you may have had a poor choice of words. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/137 "2011-04-13T04:25:49Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I meant two groups with different L1s that develop some kind of contact language - swapped words, pidgin, creole, whatever. > > Can you pull that up for me in whatever translation you think is best? ASV: > [@](#): > > 7And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 26:28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins. 26:29But I say unto you, I shall not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. The fact that he says “I will not drink henceforth” has to mean that he has drunk before. Is this point really important to you? Why? Are you married to an Essene theory of Jesus or something? Well, it’s not impossible, but he wouldn’t have been able to eat meat or lose his temper either, both of which Jesus is said to have done. > [@](#): > > The word “preacher” is generally reserved for the Christian faith. Says who? > [@](#): > > Curious - why is it highly unlikely? Read the thread. The vast majority of the populous was illiterate, esepcially the social class to which Jesus was supposed to have belonged. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/138 "2011-04-13T04:27:50Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Jewish worship? That’s an odd use way to characterize it. How so? What do you actually know about ancient Jewish worship and how it changed? > [@](#): > > I’m not inventing things. I’m suggesting you may have had a poor choice of words. Nope. My words were carefully chosen, well-informed and accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/139 "2011-04-13T06:59:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It just meant “teacher.” Not necessarily of torah, and the word used in the Gospels is ῥαββί, not a transliteration of _dayan_. > > The transliteration is from _rabh_ to _rhabbi_. What do you think it SHOULD be? > > No it isn’t/. That word just generically meant “teacher” or “master.” It was a general honorific, not a clerical title. Hold up. A scholar of Torah would be a rabbi (sometime in early Talmudic years, so let’s say 200 AD and onward) or perhaps a dayan or sage (pre and post Temple Sanhedrin). But “rabbi” could clearly mean a scholar of Torah in the time of Jesus. Rabbi does not just generically mean teacher. You say “master” later, but generic teacher is not = my master / _רבי_ or “rev”/great. It would be more accurate to say that a “rabbi” in the Tenakh was a master teacher, a great leader, a commander, anything “rav” or “large/superior” in Hebrew iconicity. Now, since we know that words change, let’s explore what rabbi would have meant in Jesus’ time. Mmmhmm, fast forward: A _rabbi_ would be a serious authoritative figure, a master, a leader, a governor. Authoritative figure of what? Hmm…you tell me. If Jesus was a sage or a philosopher or a self described prophet or what have you, it is reasonable to expect that he would be educated in Oral Torah law. What was he teaching again? Did he not quote Torah? So are we to think that he was a teacher of Torah but _illiterate_? After all of this time studying amongst these great Jews? For shame! If everyone is calling him Rabbi, it’s safe to assume he was the Master of _something_. The man’s teaching style is similar to that of an early Talmudic scholar. It’s entirely plausible he was a master of the entire tenach (hence the disciples). Well, the Christians also want you to believe that the Mosiach was to come from a virgin, but anyway. If Jesus was illiterate and his disciples were literate, don’t you think that would have posed a potential deflect issue? While it is entirely possible he memorized and did not read, I feel the evidence leans towards “literate”. The texts that we do have of the Gospels are large and varied. I just\* assumed \*that if the **Christians** used a word like _ῥαββί_, then they would mean him to be a scholar of Torah, considering his job and the time in which the Scriptures were canonized (loooong after Nazarines became known as Christians). But since I’m not Christian nor do I make apologies for any language errors, it’s not really something I think about. 😉 If Christians thought the word _rabbi_ was appropriate at 200, 300, 400 CE, then they clearly wanted the public to believe that Jesus was a scholar of the Torah. What the heck else was he teaching? Home improvement workshops for Lowe’s? If you are going to address someone as ‘rabbi’ in ancient Hebrew, then you are addressing a superior (‘master’, ‘great’, etc). Now, if Jesus was so very unlikely illiterate as you claim, then it is a horrible horrible thought to think that the modern Bible would perpetuate such a myth that Jesus was a Torah scholar! :eek: Hot snap, that’s a hard pill to swallow for Christians. All those translations over the years? You’re telling me there’s a vast Christian conspiracy to promote Jesus as a Torah scholar when he wasn’t? Can you pull up what words (and I don’t mean Christ or Messiah) are used to describe Jesus the teacher in Greek? I don’t know Greek. Thanks. I tried to and I got “διδασκαλος”, but hey, it’s Greek to me. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/140 "2011-04-13T07:06:23Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > What the heck else was he teaching? Home improvement workshops for Lowe’s? > > If you are going to address someone as ‘rabbi’ in ancient Hebrew, then you are addressing a superior (‘master’, ‘great’, etc). Now, if Jesus was so very unlikely illiterate as you claim Oops. I meant to type “likely illiterate”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254.md?page=8)