# Was Jesus Literate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254 "2011-02-05T04:16:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/161 "2011-04-13T23:59:06Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yabbut, that’s all from the Gospels, and if you’re going to use the Gospels as a record of what he said then it’s inconsistent to ignore what they say when they mention him reading in the synagogue. :smack: No it isn’t. There are perfectly consistent positions that accept some sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels as authentic, but view most or all of the historical narrative those sayings are wrapped in as inventions. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/162 "2011-04-14T00:15:12Z")
Dio, you’re giving me a headache. You make up new meanings to words, you deny obvious fact, you say you didn’t say things when you did, you ignore pertinent statements…what’s the point? I don’t give two fiddler’s farts if Jesus could read. It’s totally possible, and not in a “less than two per cent” kind of possible. If the man could not read and was claiming to be a Jewish authoritative figure, he would have encountered some PR problems. I’m sure the Sanhedrin and Pharisees would have capitalized on that. :o > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes I can. That’s a provisional statement. It > is not a statement about Jesus _per se_ but about the cultural and historical context in which he is alleged to have lived. I don’t know why you’re having trouble with this, but it is perfectly reasonable to make statements about what kind of education 1st Century, Galilean _tektons_ were likely to get without regard to whether Jesus existed or whjether what the Gospels says is accurate.\*\* You do understand the meaning of the word _if[]/i], don’t you?_\* Ah, insulting my literacy skills. I got into trouble for that once. Maybe he \*wasn’t \*from Galilee. I don’t know. You don’t know. What I do know is that taking one or two things about a man from the Gospels and then discarding the rest is a little sketch. You said he drank wine. How do you know? Oh yeah, you cited the Gospels. So why can’t I cite the Gospels in reference to Jesus reading and the way in which he was addressed? I’ve never claimed the Gospels to be historically accurate, but I’m not going to toss them entirely when trying to figure out this Jesus character. :o > [@](#): > > This is completele Bollocks. I’m not calling Jesus \*anything necessariliy, I’m saying that IF he came from the cultural milieu alleged in the Gospels, then THIS is what the likelihood would have been. Isn’t the point of Jesus that he defied likelihood? Where was Joseph in his life? Did he die? Did Mary re-marry? Did Jesus have brothers? Didn’t James write? Wasn’t his uncle a priest? Or do you dismiss all of those things because they are in the Gospels? **If so, fine, but you have very little to add to this thread besides “A first century supposed carpenter was likely illiterate.”** > [@](#): > > I don’t have my words confused. I know the difference, and the social straification of 1st century Palestine was a virtual caste system. There was no virtical mobility, and people had ritual hangups about who they could or could not associate with. The only caste system that I know of in Jewry is tribal, which I noted in the earlier post. You are confusing class with caste. Again. I’m not denying social hangups, taboos, or class. I am taking issue with your use of “caste”. _You say that a caste system would prevent someone from acquiring literacy._ > [@](#): > > Yes it is. Completely. I would refer you to John Crossan’s _Historical Jesus_ for a detailed breakdown of the social stratification at the time. Oh awesome. Refer me to a man who has his own academic enemies. Historical Jesus theories aren’t uniform. Jesus wasn’t the first supposed mosiach in Jewish history. _sigh_ Look, you’re going to believe what you want to believe because in an area like this, there are so many theorists that one is bound to agree with you. I have zero personal investment in whether or not the man was illiterate, but I have never argued absolutes in murky areas of history. You seem comfortable with that. You also seem to be comfortable in disregarding Jewish history, Jewish theology and the Hebrew language! :smack: > [@](#): > > You should take your own advice. I, on the other hand, have provided informed information. you don’t seem to have much, if any background in historical method if you think that the only way to research historical Jesus is to read the Gospels (which are fiction), then throw up your hands if you don’t know how to answer something. Where do I say that? You speak an untruth. > [@](#): > > Your information is incorrect. Sorry. I do have a background in Biblical Greek and Biblical criticism. Yeah, and your background in Biblical Greek was really helpful when discussing ancient Hebrew iconicity. :rolleyes: Does your background in Jewish history start and end with Jesus? You don’t seem to think him to be a Torah scholar, yet the man speaks as though he were writing a tractate in the Talmud! Did he not make reference to the sh’ma? Does his Golden Rule not sound like Hillel? > [@](#): > > “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and learn.” I don’t know if there were Pharisees in Galilee and I don’t know how much of Jesus is true, but I won’t discredit the Jewish themes in the Gospels - even if I question what became of it all. > [@](#): > > I have done that. I’ve spent years researching it.\*\* You’re the one who seems to lack any relevant background here.\*\* Honey, you can have Ph.D. from Mickey Mouse University and still make poor arguments. Can you let me see the papers you’ve produced? I’m not saying you don’t know Biblical Greek. I’m just needing a little bit more than “I know more than you do! neener neener!” And yes, I\* do\* question your logic train. School me, Dio. Write a quick thesis statement and back it up with some ABCD points for the rest of us. Add sources so we may go and learn. :o ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/163 "2011-04-14T00:27:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Both. > > This is pointless pedantry. It was a virtual caste system. Social mobility was pretty much closed. **Nothing** would prohibit Jesus from learning how to read except the lack of a teacher. The Talmud mandates that _at least_ one man in every small town should read so that all can learn the Torah from him. You act as though the entire population of Nazareth were illiterate men who chipped at rocks all day. I’m going to bet that if Jesus wanted to learn to read, it would have been open to him somehow. Teaching Torah has been the obligation of every Jew since Moses, and literacy is a fine gateway for Torah study. No, literacy is not required for Torah study or Jewish instruction, but the words of Jesus suggest he was well-versed in 1 C. Jewish thought. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/164 "2011-04-14T00:42:26Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I don’t give two fiddler’s farts if Jesus could read. Me either. > [@](#): > > It’s totally possible, and not in a “less than two per cent” kind of possible. Wrong. > [@](#): > > If the man could not read and was claiming to be a Jewish authoritative figure, he would have encountered some PR problems. This is simply inaccurate and uninformed. > [@](#): > > Ah, insulting my literacy skills. I got into trouble for that once. Maybe he \*wasn’t \*from Galilee. I don’t know. You don’t know. What I do know is that taking one or two things about a man from the Gospels and then discarding the rest is a little sketch. You said he drank wine. How do you know? Oh yeah, you cited the Gospels. So why can’t I cite the Gospels in reference to Jesus reading and the way in which he was addressed? I’ve never claimed the Gospels to be historically accurate, but I’m not going to toss them entirely when trying to figure out this Jesus character. You really do have reading comprehension problems. It doesn’t matter if he was from Galilee or not. IF he was a Galilean peasant, as the Gospels claim, then it’s highly unlikely that he was educated. That does not amount to an assertion that he was a Galilean peasant, only a statement about what was likely IF he was. I didn’t say he drank wine, I said the _Gospels_ say he drank wine. Read with comprehension. > [@](#): > > Isn’t the point of Jesus that he defied likelihood? I don’t know what the hell this question means. It’s a theological question with no reference to anything that can be assertained from historical evidence. > [@](#): > > Where was Joseph in his life? Did he die? Did Mary re-marry? Did Jesus have brothers? Didn’t James write? Wasn’t his uncle a priest? Or do you dismiss all of those things because they are in the Gospels? **If so, fine, but you have very little to add to this thread besides “A first century supposed carpenter was likely illiterate.”** That last sentence is, in fact, the answer to the OP’s questiuon and the best answer possible. > [@](#): > > The only caste system that I know of in Jewry is tribal, which I noted in the earlier post. You are confusing class with caste. Again. I’m not denying social hangups, taboos, or class. I am taking issue with your use of “caste”. _You say that a caste system would prevent someone from acquiring literacy._ I think yyou have a misunbderstanding of what the word “caste” means, or how it can be used. > [@](#): > > Oh awesome. Refer me to a man who has his own academic enemies. Historical Jesus theories aren’t uniform. Jesus wasn’t the first supposed mosiach in Jewish history. _sigh_ > > Look, you’re going to believe what you want to believe because in an area like this, there are so many theorists that one is bound to agree with you. I didn’t present you with any theory. > [@](#): > > I have zero personal investment in whether or not the man was illiterate me either. > [@](#): > > but I have never argued absolutes in murky areas of history. Me either (with the exception that I absolutely dismiss supernatural claims). I have spioken only in likelihoods. > [@](#): > > You also seem to be comfortable in disregarding Jewish history, Jewish theology and the Hebrew language! :smack: I’ve dismisseed nothing of the kind. I just apear to klnow more about those things than you do. > [@](#): > > Where do I say that? You speak an untruth. This was you: The OP asked if Jesus was literate. We don’t know. So we take into account what we do know. Well, that doesn’t get us anywhere. Josephus is only somewhat reliable. We have to look at the Gospels. If we question their validity then the only thing we can do is throw our hands up and say, “I donno. Impossible to say.” If that is your position then SAY THAT and leave the thread be. [/quote] Yiou have not exhausted all avenues simply by reading Josephus in the Gospels. > [@](#): > > Yeah, and your background in Biblical Greek was really helpful when discussing ancient Hebrew iconicity. :rolleyes: Does your background in Jewish history start and end with Jesus? It starts well before Jesus. > [@](#): > > You don’t seem to think him to be a Torah scholar There is no evidence to think that he was, and , > [@](#): > > yet the man speaks as though he were writing a tractate in the Talmud! Did he not make reference to the sh’ma? Does his Golden Rule not sound like Hillel? Jesus didn’t write the Gospels. They do have him quoting Hillel, yes, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he actually did. If you see an old episode of _Davy Crockett_, do you assume that all the dialogues is actually taken from history? > [@](#): > > I don’t know if there were Pharisees in Galilee and I don’t know how much of Jesus is true, but I won’t discredit the Jewish themes in the Gospels - even if I question what became of it all. Who’s discrediting Jewish themes in the Gospels? [qupte]Can you let me see the papers you’ve produced? I’m not saying you don’t know Biblical Greek. I’m just needing a little bit more than “I know more than you do! neener neener!” And yes, I\* do\* question your logic train. [/quote] I have a BA in Religious Studies and Classical Languages. Believe me or not, I don’t care. If you can ever spot a mistake in my Greek call me out. You have not identified anything wrong with my logic. It is your own that is muddled. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/165 "2011-04-14T00:49:16Z")
Dio’s arguments in a nutshell: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Wrong. > > This is simply inaccurate and uninformed. > > You really do have reading comprehension problems. > > Read with comprehension. > > I don’t know what the hell this question means. > > I just apear to klnow more about those things [Jewish history, Jewish theology and the Hebrew language] than you do. It’s hopeless. :o ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/166 "2011-04-14T00:50:56Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > **Nothing** would prohibit Jesus from learning how to read except the lack of a teacher. And the lack of schools, time and resources. Very few Palestinian Jews were formally educated in the 1st Century, especially not peasants. The soms of tektons did not go to school, they went to work. > [@](#): > > The Talmud mandates that _at least_ one man in every small town should read so that all can learn the Torah from him. The Talmud didn’t exist in the 1st Century, but this would say nothing about Jesus in any case. Sure he would have likely gone to a synagogue and heard the Torah read aloud, perhaps even learned quite a lot of it orlly. That wouldn’t have made him literate, though. > [@](#): > > You act as though the entire population of Nazareth were illiterate men who chipped at rocks all day. They probably were. > [@](#): > > I’m going to bet that if Jesus wanted to learn to read, it would have been open to him somehow. Not during childhood. He wouldn’t have the time, the money, the resources or the access. > [@](#): > > Teaching Torah has been the obligation of every Jew since Moses, and literacy is a fine gateway for Torah study. No, literacy is not required for Torah study or Jewish instruction, but the words of Jesus suggest he was well-versed in 1 C. Jewish thought. Nobpdy knows the words of Jesus, and Torah study is not what’s being asked about. Literacy is. There was no Moses, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/167 "2011-04-14T01:12:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > And the lack of schools, time and resources. Very few Palestinian Jews were formally educated in the 1st Century, especially not peasants. The soms of tektons did not go to school, they went to work. Um…My dad lacks a formal education and he can read. During the Jewish revolt in the 1st C., schools were established to teach men how to read. There was also a push for formal Torah education. It didn’t come out of nowhere. > [@](#): > > The Talmud didn’t exist in the 1st Century, It had not yet been compiled and written down. This is _not_ to say that the schools of Hillel and Shammai were not in existence! Hillel predates Jesus! I thought you were a Jewish scholar? **The Oral Law existed.** > [@](#): > > but this would say nothing about Jesus in any case. See above. > [@](#): > > Sure he would have likely gone to a synagogue and heard the Torah read aloud, perhaps even learned quite a lot of it orlly. That wouldn’t have made him literate, though. I never claimed it did. But there would have been\* at least\* one literate person nearby. > [@](#): > > Not during childhood. He wouldn’t have the time, the money, the resources or the access. My dad learned how to read when he was seventeen. I already addressed you on the access issue. > [@](#): > > There was no Moses, by the way. Oh good God. I spoke of it as a time period. \* > [@](#): > > \*Teach them to your children: to speak them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you rise up. Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. \* - You think\*\* I’m \*\*silly, but your argument is based on subjective guesswork. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/168 "2011-04-14T01:20:03Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Um…My dad lacks a formal education and he can read. So what? That’s still more educatuon than a 1st centuray Palestinian peasant could have gotten. Your dad, for instance, actually had the ability put his hands on books. > [@](#): > > During the Jewish revolt in the 1st C., schools were established to teach men how to read. There was also a push for formal Torah education. It didn’t come out of nowhere. > [/quote > The firts Jewish revolt happened more than 30 years after Jesus was allegedly crucified. > [qupte] > It had not yet been compiled and written down. This is _not_ to say that the schools of Hillel and Shammai were not in existence! Who said those schools were not in existence. Why do you keep inventing things I didn’t say? > [@](#): > > Hillel predates Jesus! I Know. I never said otherwise. What the hell are you talking about. What does that have to do with when the _Talmud_ existed? > [@](#): > > **The Oral Law existed.** This is a faith belief. > [@](#): > > I never claimed it did. But there would have been\* at least\* one literate person nearby. Maybe, maybe not, but so what? That person would not have been the child of a day laborer. > [@](#): > > My dad learned how to read when he was seventeen. I already addressed you on the access issue. Your dad’s experience has no relevance to this thread. > [@](#): > > You think\*\* I’m \*\*silly, but your argument is based on subjective guesswork. No, my argument is based on actual reading and research. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/169 "2011-04-14T01:24:26Z")
So let’s see your research. You dismiss the Talmud. OK. You dismiss the Tenach. OK. You dismiss the Torah. OK. You dismiss the Gospels. OK. So let’s see your research that shows first century poor Palestinians were restricted from learning how to read. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/170 "2011-04-14T01:26:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I Know. I never said otherwise. What the hell are you talking about. What does that have to do with when the _Talmud_ existed? If Jesus was quoting Hillel, that would indicate - oh wait I’m not allowed to use the Gospels for sourcing of what Jesus said. _Shucks_. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/171 "2011-04-14T01:37:45Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > So let’s see your research. > > You dismiss the Talmud. OK. You dismiss the Tenach. OK. You dismiss the Torah. OK. You dismiss the Gospels. OK. I dismiss them as reliable history, yes, of course, It would be empirically irresponsible to take them at face value. > [@](#): > > So let’s see your research that shows first century poor Palestinians were restricted from learning how to read. You keep making up things I didn’t say. They wreen’t “restricted” in the sense of actively prevented by others, they just lacked the money, the time, the access and the resources. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/172 "2011-04-14T01:40:45Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > If Jesus was quoting Hillel, that would indicate - > > oh wait > > I’m not allowed to use the Gospels for sourcing of what Jesus said. > > _Shucks_. :smack: Do you imagine you’re making some kind of point with this? For the record, the Gospels don’t actually cite Hillel as the source for anything. They present that saying as if it was Jesus’ own. It also wouldn’t mean thta Jesus was quoting the Talmud (which didn’t exist yet, so he couldn’t have been), but that he was quoting Hillel, who’s sayings still certainly remained in recent memory. You keep making arguments that are not arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/173 "2011-04-14T07:25:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Do you imagine you’re making some kind of point with this? Well, I’d like to provide some ideas that may give credence to the idea that Jesus could read, but you won’t accept _anything._ So leave the thread already. > [@](#): > > For the record, the Gospels don’t actually cite Hillel as the source for anything. Noooo, but the teachings of Jesus are rather…House of Hillel-like. > [@](#): > > They present that saying as if it was Jesus’ own. Sheisters. > [@](#): > > It also wouldn’t mean thta Jesus was quoting the Talmud (which didn’t exist yet, so he couldn’t have been), but that he was quoting Hillel, who’s sayings still certainly remained in recent memory. Hillel’s writings are in the Talmud, so when I say “quote Talmud”, I should’ve said, “Quote Hillel” or “said the same things that are said in the Talmud”, since I don’t know of any of his parables/teachings that aren’t found in the Talmud or Tenach. Also, both men were alive at the same time. But hey! You don’t believe that either existed or the validity of Oral Law. So why are we talking? Oh yeah, cause you think - > [@](#): > > You keep making arguments that are not arguments. Since you can’t cite or debate in this thread…I can see how you’d think so. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/174 "2011-04-14T07:27:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I dismiss them as reliable history, yes, of course, It would be empirically irresponsible to take them at face value. > > You keep making up things I didn’t say. They wreen’t “restricted” in the sense of actively prevented by others, they just lacked the money, the time, the access and the resources. You said the caste system prevented them from being literate. Your comment “they just lacked the money, the time, the access and the resources” says you think all Jewish boys of non-priestly class were in this category. I’m asking where you have this information. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/175 "2011-04-14T12:27:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Well, I’d like to provide some ideas that may give credence to the idea that Jesus could read, but you won’t accept _anything._ So leave the thread already. I’m presenting information that shows it was unlikely. > [@](#): > > Hillel’s writings are in the Talmud, so when I say “quote Talmud”, I should’ve said, “Quote Hillel” or “said the same things that are said in the Talmud”, since I don’t know of any of his parables/teachings that aren’t found in the Talmud or Tenach. You should have said “quted Hillel.” He couldn’t have quoted the Talmud. > [@](#): > > Also, both men were alive at the same time. Barely. Using the traditional dates, Hillel died when Jesus was a teenager, but that juts goes to my point that Hillel’s sayins still would have been fresh memories and Jesus wouldn’t have needed the (not yet written) Talmud in order to quote him. > [@](#): > > But hey! You don’t believe that either existed or the validity of Oral Law. So why are we talking? I didn’t say any of these things and your distortion of my words is becoming dishonest. Please quit making up things I didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/176 "2011-04-14T12:29:42Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You said the caste system prevented them from being literate. Not as such. I said the circumstances of Jesus’ social class would have made it diffficult. It was also an era where, to cite Crossan - “95-98% of the Palestinian state was illiterate.” > [@](#): > > Your comment “they just lacked the money, the time, the access and the resources” says you think all Jewish boys of non-priestly class were in this category. Most of them were. That is correct. > [@](#): > > I’m asking where you have this information. Thanks. John Crossan’s _Historical Jesus_. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/177 "2011-04-14T15:09:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not as such. I said the circumstances of Jesus’ social class would have made it diffficult. It was also an era where, to cite Crossan - “95-98% of the Palestinian state was illiterate.” You said caste system. Again and again. I never said it would be\* easy\*, but you made it sound like it was virtually impossible. Again, you do not need formal schooling to become literate. I was reading before preschool. Do you know who taught me? My mother. Literacy is not bound by social class, though lower income families do have lower literacy rates. Just because you are poor does not mean you cannot achieve the ability to read. You can be poor and lack the money to buy a BMW, but the cost of learning how to read depends on who is teaching you and what the market value is for that skill. If his mother, father, or brothers (again, the Christians do claim he was a man from Galilee who had a literate brother…) could read, it’s not unreasonable to think that so could he. > [@](#): > > Most of them were. That is correct. Most. The story of historical Jesus wouldn’t be that incredible if we didn’t think he was intellectually superior. Literacy is not required for intellect, but it sure does help when you’re discussing theology. We know that Israelites had access to literacy. There was no tribal restriction. Your citation of 95-98% is based on the idea that _most_ agricultural nations have lower literacy rates. You’re applying this to life in Galilee 2,000 years ago to a community that you know little about. You refuse to put it in any kind of Jewish context because you dismiss Jewish records of that time. All of your knowledge is based on subjective guesswork. It’s very neat that you want to tell people that they are wrong about their own history based on your superior knowledge of what happened two, three, or four thousand years ago, but since I don’t ride the Dio Time Machine, I’m going to take it with a grain of salt. It is one thing to _disprove_ a theory by providing absolute truths, but all you’ve done is pick and choose what you’d like to hear and put it forth for an “argument” while dismissing \*everything \*else. I understand that not all information or evidence is equally valid…but your strongest argument is, “We don’t\* know \*because we don’t have absolute proof.” Holy farts, Dio, welcome to ancient history! > [@](#): > > John Crossan’s _Historical Jesus_. Finally, Dio, you cite your sources. Crossan. _The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant._ He is a theorist, no? Didn’t I say earlier that you could pick and choose a theorist to match your beliefs? So your “authority” on this subject is based on one book by a guy who has theories about the historical Jesus. That’s it? Okay. So instead of saying you know more about Jewish history than I do, just admit, “I am in this guy’s camp.” :rolleyes: You’re not a researcher. I am not a researcher. But your ‘evidence’ that supports your claim is based on a guy who makes - yeah - subjective statements based on what little information he has. All of this is subjective. Stop acting like the Dio Brain Reigns Supreme here. I’m not saying Crossan’s work isn’t valuable and I’m most certainly not claiming Jesus was as depicted in the Bible. But Crossan’s methodology and non-Canonical sources are the same kinds of things that you claim to not be relevant in this conversation. Also, isn’t this the guy who says Jesus was known as a magician? Crossan depicts Jesus as a revolutionary. If anything, Jesus rode in on the coattails of the thinkers before him. When I noted that Jesus echoed Hillel, you shot it down because “We don’t know if he actually said that”. Yet you cite a man (Crossan) who considers the Gospels to be historical when citing the words of Jesus. Hmm… > [@](#): > > **Dio says:** > > Jesus didn’t write the Gospels. They do have him quoting Hillel, yes, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he actually did. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/178 "2011-04-14T15:28:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m presenting information that shows it was unlikely. No. You are throwing out one book. That is not presenting information. I read _The Gospel of Thomas_, too. Can’t cite it here because it’s not allowed in the Dio rules, but anyway. > [@](#): > > Barely. Using the traditional dates, Hillel died when Jesus was a teenager, but that juts goes to my point that Hillel’s sayins still would have been fresh memories and Jesus wouldn’t have needed the (not yet written) Talmud in order to quote him. I didn’t say that he would have had to read Hillel. I most certainly don’t think they met! I said that Jesus ascribed to theories held by esteemed and literate men that were in the Camp of Hillel. In Jesus’ teen years, Shammai had taken control upon Hillel’s death. The nature in which he spoke suggests that either a) he stole it all from someone else and had no understanding of his words or b) he is the student who became a _rav_ based on his knowledge, authority, and followers or c) he was an illiterate buffoon who claimed to know all that he did not. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say any of these things and your distortion of my words is becoming dishonest. Please quit making up things I didn’t say. You dismissed the Oral Law. Are you backpeddling? Can I use the Talmud to make some some points yet? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/179 "2011-04-14T15:38:05Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You said caste system. Again and again. I never said it would be\* easy\*, but you made it sound like it was virtually impossible. Yes it was functionally a caste system, and I never said it was impossible, I said over and over that it was highly _unlikely_. > [@](#): > > Again, you do not need formal schooling to become literate. You still need a teacher, you need books, you need paper and you need time. Palestinian peasants in the 1st century had none of these things. > [@](#): > > Just because you are poor Yiou really don’t have any grasp of what that word meant in the time and place we’re talking about. > [@](#): > > If his mother, father, or brothers (again, the Christians do claim he was a man from Galilee who had a literate brother…) could read, it’s not unreasonable to think that so could he. There is no claim in the New Testament that his brother was literate. Where are you getting that? > [@](#): > > Most. The story of historical Jesus wouldn’t be that incredible if we didn’t think he was intellectually superior. “The story of historical Jesus?” What does that even mean? And what does intellect have to do with literacy? > [@](#): > > We know that Israelites had access to literacy. Wrong. > [@](#): > > There was no tribal restriction. Irrelevant. Another one of your strawmen. I’;ve never seen somebody refute so many things taht were never said. > [@](#): > > Your citation of 95-98% is based on the idea that _most_ agricultural nations have lower literacy rates. No it’s based specifically on estimates (made from a variety of archaeological and historical and cross-cultural anthropological data. > [@](#): > > You’re applying this to life in Galilee 2,000 years ago to a community that you know little about. what makes you think I know “very little about it?” I have researched it for years and read extensively about it. > [@](#): > > You refuse to put it in any kind of Jewish context because you dismiss Jewish records of that time. You are misinformed about waht “Jewish context” meant at that time, and I have not dismissed any contemporary Jewish records. The Gospels are neither Jewish nor contemporary. The Talmud dates from centuries later. > [@](#): > > All of your knowledge is based on subjective guesswork. I assure you, it is not. It’s based on, among other things, an actual college degree in the relevant subject matter and many, many years of independent research. > [@](#): > > It’s very neat that you want to tell people that they are wrong about their own history based on your superior knowledge of what happened two, three, or four thousand years ago, but since I don’t ride the Dio Time Machine, I’m going to take it with a grain of salt. I’m telling you, and you only, that you are misinformed about the circumstances of 1st Century Palestine with refards to literacy. > [@](#): > > It is one thing to _disprove_ a theory by providing absolute truths, but all you’ve done is pick and choose what you’d like to hear and put it forth for an “argument” while dismissing \*everything \*else. I provided objective and dispassionate information. I don’tp[ersonally care if Jesus could read or not. I have no dog in that fight. You appear to be upset because it doesn’t jibe with your own mistaken/misinformed perceptions about the realities of that time and place. > [@](#): > > I understand that not all information or evidence is equally valid…but your strongest argument is, “We don’t\* know \*because we don’t have absolute proof.” Holy farts, Dio, welcome to ancient history! I don’t even know what you’re referring to or trying to refute. We can’t know anything for sure about Jesus, but we _can_ know something about the life of a 1st Century, Galilean day laborer. That is my argument. > [@](#): > > Crossan. _The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant._ > > He is a theorist, no? Irrelevant to his basic historical scholarship. I did not present any of his theories, and Crossan is far from the only scholar who has this kind of estimate of literacy rates. I would also point out that you haven’t provided a scintilla of historical evdience that Jewish peasants _could_ read. > [@](#): > > You’re not a researcher. I am not a researcher. I am a researcher. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying Crossan’s work isn’t valuable and I’m most certainly not claiming Jesus was as depicted in the Bible. But Crossan’s methodology and non-Canonical sources are the same kinds of things that you claim to not be relevant in this conversation I never said either of those things were not relevant, and I doubt you know anything at all about Crossan’;s methodology. [quote] Also, isn’t this the guy who says Jesus was known as a magician?[/qute] No. Crossan doesn’t say that. > [@](#): > > Crossan depicts Jesus as a revolutionary. If anything, Jesus rode in on the coattails of the thinkers before him. This has no bearing on the thread, but it does not appear that you have any idea what Crossan means by “revolutionary.” > [@](#): > > When I noted that Jesus echoed Hillel, you shot it down because “We don’t know if he actually said that”. Yet you cite a man (Crossan) who considers the Gospels to be historical when citing the words of Jesus. Hmm… Crossan does not consider the Gospels to be historical. You don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254/180 "2011-04-14T16:03:37Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No. You are throwing out one book. That is not presenting information. I read _The Gospel of Thomas_, too. Can’t cite it here because it’s not allowed in the Dio rules, but anyway. This is an inane comparison. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say that he would have had to read Hillel. I most certainly don’t think they met! I said that Jesus ascribed to theories held by esteemed and literate men that were in the Camp of Hillel. It’s more accurate to say that the Gospels attribute a saying to Jesus which is similar to one said by Hillel, but so what? You cited the Hillel saying when I told you that the Talmud didn’t exist in the 1st Century. What does one have to do with the other? > [@](#): > > In Jesus’ teen years, Shammai had taken control upon Hillel’s death. The nature in which he spoke suggests that either a) he stole it all from someone else and had no understanding of his words or b) he is the student who became a _rav_ based on his knowledge, authority, and followers or c) he was an illiterate buffoon who claimed to know all that he did not. Or Mark incorporated one of Hillel’s sayings into his Gospel. Or both Jesus and Hillel were citing Leviticus, or the authors of those respective books were both citing Leviticus. If I want to get really pissy, I can point out that Mark’s Gospel predates the Talmud, therefore the Talmud could have been stealing from the Gospels. In any case, none of this is relevant to whether Jesus was literate. Citing an attributed saying as evdience of literacy is circular since the accuracy of the gospels is exactly what’s being examned. If you want to rely on the Gospels, you can just cite Luke saying that Jesus read from a scroll in the synagigue. No need to make inferences from attributed sayings. > [@](#): > > You dismissed the Oral Law. Are you backpeddling? Can I use the Talmud to make some some points yet? :rolleyes: The Talmud is not comntemporary. We have no record of contemporaneous “oral law,” so it can’t be examined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-literate/570254.md?page=10)