# Was Jesus Real or a Myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360 "2015-02-22T18:39:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/281 "2015-03-11T19:24:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Being a small child a waking up from a nap…not very convincing. Could very well be a positively reinforced memory of a child’s waking dream. A friend of mine is religiously faithful, because she saw an angel, once, when she was awakening. As someone who has experienced hypnagogic and hynopompic hallucinations of the most astonishing kinds – angels? Hey, I’ve had wolves and ninjas and deer and glowy-eyed witches in my bedroom! – I’m not sold. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/282 "2015-03-11T19:28:38Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > So being a large child wide awake would convince you?😕 No, a memory from childhood of seeing a man floating in the sky after you woke up from a nap during a long trip would not count as a personal interaction. Before we go any farther, you might want to look up both “personal” and “interaction” in a dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/283 "2015-03-11T19:48:37Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > Jesus appeared to me in a number of ways throughout my life, but by no means on either a weekly or even yearly basis. He just does His own thing. :dubious: > > The last direct time was coming to me in a dream after I’d gotten on my knees that night and let him know that I was very troubled about certain things. On that particular occasion, He was standing in front of a middle eastern house(?) with an arched door way and behind Him the background was darkened out and, too, I wasn’t able to see Him super-clearly just because of the amount of darkness. > > He told me, “Evil people are not allowed in here.” THAT comment related to what I had prayed about, a certain dark feature of my life at the time, and so I knew pretty much what He was getting at. And amazingly(!!), I was given an affirmation … a little painting-picture of Him standing right next to a door _just like_ the one in my dream from a couple of weeks earlier, with the only difference of there being light to where I could easily see Him as well as the scenery behind him. > > I still have that picture, needless to say. (There were also some interesting words under this little picture in question, though I’ll keep quiet about those lest it all get too complicated to get into:confused: > > He’s also appeared in much more substantial ways, though those happened when I was very young… Suffice it to say that I’m absolutely not better than anyone else in this crazy world, and so – like it says in the Bible – everyone is permitted to go to Jesus about their life and problems, as well as the good things going on.🙂 > > Note: Needless to say, this post has Flame written all over it. For that reason I’ll likely just stick with things of a more secular nature, at least for a while.😉 Dibbs, can you do me a favor, since the big guy refuses to appear to me, can you ask him to maybe do something about the thousands of people being butchered by ISIS. Or maybe the babies starving to death in Africa. I understand he’s probably rather busy making repeated appearances to well off American Christians in order to help them get through tough times, like the time their favorite team lost the big game, or the time their wife cheated on them, but you know, there are a few outstanding issues out there that might, and I’m just suggesting this possibility, be of more importance to the world. K? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/284 "2015-03-11T20:33:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A friend of mine is religiously faithful, because she saw an angel, once, when she was awakening. > > As someone who has experienced hypnagogic and hynopompic hallucinations of the most astonishing kinds – angels? Hey, I’ve had wolves and ninjas and deer and glowy-eyed witches in my bedroom! – I’m not sold. * * * Some of you people are absolutely hysterical. You keep hammering on with comments suggesting that I, or others, are in this world to “convince” you of this or that. And yet, as I have spoken to you with sincerity AND logic, you demonstrate that you suffer badly in the reading comprehension department by not grasping the nuances of my words while flinging around the term science, as if one is to automatically say, “You’re right! This is not a mystical world at all and if one person experiences something then it automatically follows that its validity is doubtful!” What foolishness! Here, since you want to play the game of being all technical – which you’re not any good at, btw – answer this question: Is love real? (Don’t forget that it cannot be measure, weighed, proved, etc.!:eek:) And for about the fourth time, let me again say I MADE IT CLEAR FROM THE START THAT I NEVER(!!) HAD ANY INTENTION OR DESIRE TO “PROVE” OR “CONVINCE” OR “SELL” ANYONE ON THE FACT THAT MY EXPERIENCES HAPPENED. (And if you have any doubt of this, go back to my first comment and you’ll see that I made that point clear as can be.) I’m a pretty easy-going guy and don’t do sarcasm and rudeness unless others decide to throw it at me first, in which case I may or may not respond in kind. I seriously don’t get how some of you approach Truth, as it doesn’t make sense to me that you SOMEHOW missed comments where I stated that MANY other things have happened to me… but you quickly hit the shrill/sarcasm/rude button like as if I’m supposed to start tap dancing for you. IF our little discourse had been calm, respectful, intelligent and sincere, we “might” have gotten to the more “objective” side that I could have pointed to so as to give my claims much weight. But that didn’t happen, and it wasn’t because of my approach. I am a stickler for clarity and details. Incidentally, I can’t help but wonder if some of you are the same person using different computers… 'cause it’s strange how some of you so quickly circled the wagon with trying to make it seem like I’m the one that caused things to derail. Some of you people need much more humility. You seem more interested in personal attacks than you do in discovering what the Truth of things are when it comes to matters of deep importance. It might pain you to hear this, but, when you so quickly get all cocky by trying to arrogantly “win” by suggesting someone read certain books so that they can become as learn-id as yourself, when you encourage others to rally against me by citing their comments as a way for them to get the hint and “take your side,” you only shortchange yourselves and waste everyone’s time. You think Jesus isn’t real? Try this: Get on your knees and ask for Him for forgiveness of your sins, and then ask Him to prove Himself as being real. Because who knows? He might decide to take you little game players up and do for you what you wouldn’t allow me to even get close to – i.e. bring you to the TRUTH of things.:eek: (Imagine how you’ll feel if He should come to YOU in a dream and/or in the sky and/or through other means and methods, ways in which you never allowed me time to get to before you became overbearing with your little science and whiney demands.:mad:) ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/285 "2015-03-11T20:43:38Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Dibbs, can you do me a favor, since the big guy refuses to appear to me, can you ask him to maybe do something about the thousands of people being butchered by ISIS. Or maybe the babies starving to death in Africa. > > I understand he’s probably rather busy making repeated appearances to well off American Christians in order to help them get through tough times, like the time their favorite team lost the big game, or the time their wife cheated on them, but you know, there are a few outstanding issues out there that might, and I’m just suggesting this possibility, be of more importance to the world. > > K? Thanks. It sounds like you’ve been taking lessons from some of the other witty fellows around here. Learn humility and sincerity … and then get back to me.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/286 "2015-03-11T20:48:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, a memory from childhood of seeing a man floating in the sky after you woke up from a nap during a long trip would not count as a personal interaction. Before we go any farther, you might want to look up both “personal” and “interaction” in a dictionary. I’ll do that right after you admit that I’ve been clear from the start that my desire was to have an honest and friendly discourse; to share some experiences I’ve had over the course of my life, not this business of having to prove or substantiate a thing anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/287 "2015-03-11T20:49:40Z")
The “Truth”? When _that_ word gets capitalized, it becomes next to impossible to bring any logic back into the conversation. BTW, nice persecution complex you’ve got there. I assure you we are all different posters here. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/288 "2015-03-11T20:53:28Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > I’ll do that right after you admit that I’ve been clear from the start that my desire was to have an honest and friendly discourse; to share some experiences I’ve had over the course of my life, not this business of having to prove or substantiate a thing anyone. The thread is called: “Was Jesus Real or a Myth”? People here are discussing the evidence for an actual historical figure whence the Jesus mythology of the bible sprung forth. Your childhood fantasy playmates aren’t going to settle that debate one way or another, I’m afraid. Why are you here, other than to drive by witness? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/289 "2015-03-11T20:55:51Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > I’ll do that right after you admit that I’ve been clear from the start that my desire was to have an honest and friendly discourse; to share some experiences I’ve had over the course of my life, not this business of having to prove or substantiate a thing anyone. What you seem to want is a free pass. You said you had personal interactions with Jesus, but what you have described so far could not possibly be defined as personal interactions. In the case of the dream, it was personal, but not really an interaction. In the case of you being a child in the car, _if_ were truly awake and _if_ you are remembering the event correctly, there was also no interaction-just a vision, at best. ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/290 "2015-03-11T21:22:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What you seem to want is a free pass. You said you had personal interactions with Jesus, but what you have described so far could not possibly be defined as personal interactions. In the case of the dream, it was personal, but not really an interaction. In the case of you being a child in the car, _if_ were truly awake and _if_ you are remembering the event correctly, there was also no interaction-just a vision, at best. What is it about this, my 3rd post on this thread, that you don’t get: I’m not into trying too hard to convince anyone of anything, just in a friendly way make a few mentions here and there of some of the events of my own strange life is about all. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/291 "2015-03-11T21:34:01Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > and for about the fourth time, let me again say I MADE IT CLEAR FROM THE START THAT I NEVER(!!) HAD ANY INTENTION OR DESIRE TO “PROVE” OR “CONVINCE” OR “SELL” ANYONE ON THE FACT THAT MY EXPERIENCES HAPPENED. (And if you have any doubt of this, go back to my first comment and you’ll see that I made that point clear as can be.) This is a debate forum. Dropping in with a comment that you have some sort of esoteric truth or knowledge on a topic being debated, then trying to avoid actually engaging in debate is not appropriate. > [@Dibbs](#): > > IF our little discourse had been calm, respectful, intelligent and sincere, we “might” have gotten to the more “objective” side that I could have pointed to so as to give my claims much weight. But that didn’t happen, and it wasn’t because of my approach. I am a stickler for clarity and details. Not going to work. If every single response to you had been heavy sarcasm, you might have a point. However, the first three responses only asked for information at which point you made an issue of sarcasm before any had been posted. Again, not appropriate. > [@Dibbs](#): > > Some of you people need much more humility. You seem more interested in personal attacks than you do in discovering what the Truth of things are when it comes to matters of deep importance. It might pain you to hear this, but, when you so quickly get all cocky by trying to arrogantly “win” by suggesting someone read certain books so that they can become as learn-id as yourself, when you encourage others to rally against me by citing their comments as a way for them to get the hint and “take your side,” you only shortchange yourselves and waste everyone’s time. > > You think Jesus isn’t real? Try this: Get on your knees and ask for Him for forgiveness of your sins, and then ask Him to prove Himself as being real. Because who knows? He might decide to take you little game players up and do for you what you wouldn’t allow me to even get close to – i.e. bring you to the TRUTH of things.:eek: (Imagine how you’ll feel if He should come to YOU in a dream and/or in the sky and/or through other means and methods, ways in which you never allowed me time to get to before you became overbearing with your little science and whiney demands.:mad:) This is witnessing, (accompanied by the sort of snide comment that we often see from proselytizers whose comments are not immediately embraced). This forum permits witnessing, so you may open a new thread to make your pitch. This forum does not permit personal attacks, and your own sarcasm has come closer to that than the posts which preceded it. If you wish to witness, open a new thread. If you are here to play the supercilious “saved” card, either open a new thread in The BBQ Pit or just take it to a different site on the Net. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/292 "2015-03-11T21:39:16Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > What is it about this, my 3rd post on this thread, that you don’t get: I’m not into trying too hard to convince anyone of anything, just in a friendly way make a few mentions here and there of some of the events of my own strange life is about all. And I’m sure that if people had reacted positively and accepted your stories here without question you would have likewise reacted negatively, telling them that you weren’t trying to convince them of anything and not to make anything of it. Truth to tell, your life as you’ve described it thus far just isn’t that strange-I’ve heard stranger dreams and weirder supernatural encounters on this message board before, and very often, when others fail to take them blindly at their word, they end up saying pretty much what you just said about you not being here to convince anybody. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/293 "2015-03-11T22:58:13Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > I think you might have missed this (and some other things:eek:): He’s also appeared in much more substantial ways, though those happened when I was very young… > > Time for this old boy to hit the sack. Take Care my Friends!🙂 Substantial as in there is actual physical evidence of his presence hat an objective 3rd party can see and observe? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/294 "2015-03-11T23:33:02Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > You think Jesus isn’t real? Try this: Get on your knees and ask for Him for forgiveness of your sins, and then ask Him to prove Himself as being real. Because who knows? He might decide to take you little game players up and do for you what you wouldn’t allow me to even get close to – i.e. bring you to the TRUTH of things.:eek: (Imagine how you’ll feel if He should come to YOU in a dream and/or in the sky and/or through other means and methods, ways in which you never allowed me time to get to before you became overbearing with your little science and whiney demands.:mad:) I tried that. I got on my kneesies and asked Him for forgiveness for my sins. I got no reply. I therefore conclude, using your impeccable logic, that Jesus is either deaf, doesn’t give a shit, or doesn’t exist. Or maybe he’s a practical joker, someone I really want to worship. Of course, since my observation is highly personal, you are free to discount or ignore it, as I do yours. Whether or not he ever did exist, in biblical times, as a non-supernatural man, is still an open question. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/295 "2015-03-12T00:13:26Z")
And they said evangelism was dying ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/296 "2015-03-12T02:24:43Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I tried that. I got on my kneesies and asked Him for forgiveness for my sins. > > I got no reply. . . . That’s something a lot of believers don’t understand: many of us who are unfaithful have tried to reach out to God. We’ve sincerely prayed, begging with utmost humility for help in time of trouble, for solace in woe, for comfort in loss. And, while there are many who say that they have been answered, there are a good many of us who have not been answered. God could have had a great many more faithful disciples, if he were in a position to answer all prayers. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/297 "2015-03-12T03:10:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s something a lot of believers don’t understand: many of us who are unfaithful have tried to reach out to God. We’ve sincerely prayed, begging with utmost humility for help in time of trouble, for solace in woe, for comfort in loss. > > And, while there are many who say that they have been answered, there are a good many of us who have not been answered. > > God could have had a great many more faithful disciples, if he were in a position to answer all prayers. ‘faith as small as a mustard seed can move mountains’ - yet there doesn’t seem to be anyone that has enough faith to actually be heard - (for the big things, not the seemingly little things that people praise god for instead of the team of doctors). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2015, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/298 "2015-03-12T04:43:58Z")
I can’t say I’m particularly inclined to flame Dibbs, unless doubting that his (?) mystical beliefs have any basis in reality counts as flaming. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/299 "2015-03-14T01:29:06Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > … > > > [@ambushed](#): > > > > But I must also add this extremely important addition to the list of very highly respected current ahistoricists: The justly renowned Christian writer and former historicist [**Burton Mack**!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_L._Mack) > > I’m sure you’re being honest with us, but do you think there is a possibility that you have possibly misread or overstated Mack’s viewpoint on this? Hi, razncain! Is it possible that I overstated my case in the brief summaries I’ve provided here and [elsewhere](http://www.ambushed-pub.com/)? Of course _it’s possible_ - I would be a fool to insist otherwise. But I’ve read and carefully reviewed his arguments in _The Christian Myth_ several times over the years, and although you won’t find the words “I am a mythicist | ahistoricist” point blank, as I’ve stated before such an expectation would be absurd in the extreme. But I continue to hold that the book (as well as the full fair-use summary I posted [at my site](http://www.ambushed-pub.com/)) nearly _shouts_ his 2001 change of position to ahistoricist (if one can ‘shout’ with dignity and elegance and wit)! What he’s clearly arguing quite strongly is that if Jesus was a historical, physical man, there absolutely **would** be persuasive (if not compelling) textual evidence of such existence, but since _ **all** _ the alleged evidence for such existence _ **fails utterly** _ to provide _ **ANY** _ reliable, rationally justifiable evidence that could establish this allegation, one therefore **must** concede that no such historical person – at that approximate time in that approximate location – ever existed. Neither Mack nor Doherty nor myself denies that _some_ historical people may (or may not) be “reflected” in the texts that survive, but that’s all. As I’ve claimed a few times up-thread, I personally hold that the historical person probably named “Judah” (ignore the other name I incorrectly remembered previously) – who was a Jewish rebel who fought with the royal/Jewish leadership and lived circa 100 BCE – very probably formed the initial source for the earliest Jesus myth/legend (such as Q1, assuming it is historical). But as I shouldn’t have to make clear, _some_ possible historical source for the Jesus material does NOT magically mean that some ‘Jesus’ existed! > [@razncain](#): > > … Even though Mack doesn’t consider himself an expert on Jesus historicity, according to wiki, I would very much value his opinion if this is indeed the case. I looked at the book recommendation. It’s been out since Sept of 2013… I assume you’re referring there to Ehrman’s near-universally scorned apologetic travesty, _Did Jesus Exist?_ > [@razncain](#): > > … If this is true, seems like we should have something from Carrier, Doherty, Loftus, Brodie, Avalos, Thompson and others by now, even if it is something as simple as a blog entry mentioning it. That’s most probably a fair point, but although I cannot refute it without a great deal more personal evidence from those authors themselves (and I’ll try to contact Doherty on this very question), it’s not at all difficult to reasonably speculate that they failed to specially note Mack’s change of perspective for the same reasons that **Frylock** and yourself have: i.e., I have failed to point to any specific single phrase where Mack writes “I am now a mythicist”. And what’s left _can_ be interpreted as ‘ambiguous’ (even if I do not see it that way at all). So you’ve set me a new task: to try to find out _why_ Doherty & Carrier don’t see the conclusions of _The Christian Myth_ the way I do (It’ll take some time, of course…) > [@razncain](#): > > …When I’ve read from Burton Mack, e.g., _Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making of the Christian Myth_ I’ve yet to see him side with one side or the other, and he states it is not necessary or possible to say much on the historic Jesus, he finds many other things to address, and that the earlier followers of Jesus wasn’t interested in preserving accurate memories of a historic Jesus, but more so of making him some kind of founder-teacher of some form of thought. He says they drew up on many sources which give us the final compilation of gospels we know today, but not after many, many re-writes. Then I very strongly suggest that you get a copy of Mack’s _The Christian Myth_ and study it very carefully. Or, hell, just pay attention when reading it 😉 Speaking candidly, I honestly cannot see how anyone could come to any other conclusion than that Mack had become an ahistoricist as of 2001. (BTW: When I had a similar debate on another site some years back, my main opponent claimed to have contacted Mack by email and claimed that Mack rejected my claim. However, he refused to provide the email address he used to contact him, and he also refused to publish Mack’s response, so no one on that site believed him for a second, especially since Mack is long retired and has no official public email address that anyone can find that’s still current). ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/300 "2015-03-14T01:41:25Z")
Hey, **MfM** , sorry for the long delay in responding… > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > … > > Q: Is your position that Burton Mack is an _implicit_ mythicist? Upthread you characterized him as an ahistoricist. Could you define that or tell me what you mean? The two words are virtually synonyms in my usage: ahistoricist = a-historicist = non-historicist ~= mythicist. I’m not playing games with semantics, I just don’t like using the same term all the time in my writing (writing 101). > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > … There was a nice discussion with the former poster **Diogenes the Cynic** a few years back. He was midway between historicist and mythicist, while I lean heavily towards the historicist camp (my upthread caveats emphasized). Alas, he’s no longer posting at this board. > > If he’s [Mack] a mythicist (or ahistorist) why doesn’t he come out and say it? I’m guessing that he’s in the “Mug’s game” camp. I dunno if he thinks it would be a “Mug’s game” or not (of course), but see my reply just above this one to razncain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360.md?page=16)