# Was Jesus Real or a Myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360 "2015-02-22T18:39:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/21 "2015-02-22T22:54:51Z")
Many cults, if not most, were founded by actual, singular individuals claiming divine revelation. If Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, or Hong Xiuquan lived thousands of years ago and were only known through fragmentary second hand accounts years after their death people would be wondering if they were actual people too. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/22 "2015-02-22T22:57:50Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Also, for me the greatest proof that Jesus was/is a myth is the total inaction of Jesus on his celestial throne in heaven to come here and stop this mass exodus of Christians away from Christianity. I mean if you were a father of 20 children and 19 of them were disowning you wouldn’t you at least inquire as to what the problem was? I believe that every last Christian could leave Christianity, the religion could die out and there would be no appearance by Jesus to stop the extinction of his religion. Um, what mass exodus away from Christianity? Christianity is _growing_ right now, certainly in absolute numbers. As a proportion of the world’s population, it’s been mostly holding steady for the last century (slight decline, from 35% to 32%, but certainly not anything near what you cite). [The Size and Distribution of the World’s Christian Population](http://www.pewforum.org/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/) In particular, since the collapse of the Berlin Wall 25 years ago, large numbers of people in the former Soviet Union have converted from atheism back to Christianity. I would say Christianity is doing fairly well for itself right now, in terms of te numbers game. Even in the United States, it is certainly not the case that ‘19 out of 20’ people ends up leaving Christinity. The real figure is closer to 1 in 7 of every people raised Christian ends up becoming nonreligious as an adult. (By contrast, about 45% of people raised nonreligious, in America, end up being Christians, as adults). There are good arguments against orthodox Christianity (well, _one_ good argument, viz. the problem of evil). This isn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![SeekerofTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@SeekerofTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekerofTruth)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/23 "2015-02-22T23:11:49Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I would say Christianity is doing fairly well for itself right now, in terms of te numbers game. It’s not doing well. I can show you equally valid studies that say Christianity is dying right now and will be extinct in the 50 years\> > **[The dying right: Why Christian fundamentalists are in panic mode](https://www.salon.com/2014/02/28/the_dying_right_why_christian_fundamentalists_are_in_panic_mode_partner/)** > > The religious right knows that time is running out — and that makes them even more dangerous > **[Why Christianity Is Dying While Spirituality Is Thriving](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/christianity-is-dying-spirituality-is-thriving_b_1950804)** > > There is within this new emergence an affinity for those matters of social and personal justice, compassion, spiritual wholeness and unity within and among all people and faiths. These were the obsessions of Jesus while here on earth. > [@](#): > > The title of this post alone will put some branches of the Christian church immediately on the defense. The fact is, however, I travel all over this country coaching religious leaders and consulting with congregations of every stripe imaginable. And _there is one overarching conclusion to which I’ve come:_ **Christianity is dying.** Or, to put it more accurately, the Christian church is dying while the Christian faith, in too few places still, seems to be slowly, but gratefully, morphing into something new. Simply google “Christianity is dying” and you will get more than ample evidence it is. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/24 "2015-02-23T00:12:28Z")
In connection with this discussion, there is a point that was made by the late super-atheist Christopher Hitchens that argues very eloquently that Jesus was a real person. The gospel writers wanted to show that Jesus was the predicted Messiah, and to do this they needed to show that he fulfilled certain prophecies. This is why the Gospels frequently say that such-and-such was done that such-and-such a prophecy might be fulfilled. The Gospel of Luc is the only one of the four that relates the “Christmas story” about Bethlehem and the manger. Now, it seems the business of Joseph and Mary having to go from their home in Nazareth to Bethlehem to be taxed and counted is most likely BS. There is no record of a “world-wide census” at that time and people did not pay their taxes by travelling to another city. But there is a clear prophecy in Jewish writings that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Trouble is, Jesus was from Nazareth. So somebody created the fiction that he was born in Bethlehem, allegedly because Mary and Joseph were there on the equivalent of a “business trip”. But if Jesus is pure myth, why invent all this, argues Hitchens. As long as you are writing fiction, why not just say this imaginary character was born in Bethlehem, period? Because the Jesus that the gospels were presenting as the messiah was a real person. And since he was likely born in Nazareth, not Bethlehem, and since the rest of the gospels make clear he was a Nazarene, they had to invent the story about how his mother just happened to be in Bethlehem when he was born. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/25 "2015-02-23T00:41:07Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Also, for me the greatest proof that Jesus was/is a myth is the total inaction of Jesus on his celestial throne in heaven to come here and stop this mass exodus of Christians away from Christianity. I mean if you were a father of 20 children and 19 of them were disowning you wouldn’t you at least inquire as to what the problem was? I believe that every last Christian could leave Christianity, the religion could die out and there would be no appearance by Jesus to stop the extinction of his religion. According to Christian sources, Christianity is the fastest growing religion on earth. According to Islamic sources, they are. Your statement re: mass exodus of Christians away from Christianity is about as accurate as a 17th century moon shot. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/26 "2015-02-23T01:07:19Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > It’s not doing well. I can show you equally valid studies that say Christianity is dying right now and will be extinct in the 50 years\> > > [http://www.salon.com/2014/02/28/the\_dying\_right\_why\_christian\_fundamentalists\_are\_in\_panic\_mode\_partner/](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/28/the_dying_right_why_christian_fundamentalists_are_in_panic_mode_partner/) > > [Why Christianity Is Dying While Spirituality Is Thriving | HuffPost Religion](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-mcswain/christianity-is-dying-spirituality-is-thriving_b_1950804.html) The first link claims that Fundamentalist Christianity (in the U.S.) is dying out. That may or may not be accurate, but it hardly addresses the matter of Christianity, worldwide. The second link is to a blog by a guy who is immersed in the British church, where there was a very definite fall-off in the last few decades, who is extrapolating his personal beliefs that Christianity is changing, not actually dying out. So where are the studies you claimed that would prove that Christianity would be extinct in fifty years? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/27 "2015-02-23T01:18:15Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > In connection with this discussion, there is a point that was made by the late super-atheist Christopher Hitchens that argues very eloquently that Jesus was a real person. > > The gospel writers wanted to show that Jesus was the predicted Messiah, and to do this they needed to show that he fulfilled certain prophecies. This is why the Gospels frequently say that such-and-such was done that such-and-such a prophecy might be fulfilled. > > The Gospel of Luc is the only one of the four that relates the “Christmas story” about Bethlehem and the manger. Now, it seems the business of Joseph and Mary having to go from their home in Nazareth to Bethlehem to be taxed and counted is most likely BS. There is no record of a “world-wide census” at that time and people did not pay their taxes by travelling to another city. But there is a clear prophecy in Jewish writings that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Trouble is, Jesus was from Nazareth. So somebody created the fiction that he was born in Bethlehem, allegedly because Mary and Joseph were there on the equivalent of a “business trip”. > > But if Jesus is pure myth, why invent all this, argues Hitchens. As long as you are writing fiction, why not just say this imaginary character was born in Bethlehem, period? > > Because the Jesus that the gospels were presenting as the messiah was a real person. And since he was likely born in Nazareth, not Bethlehem, and since the rest of the gospels make clear he was a Nazarene, they had to invent the story about how his mother just happened to be in Bethlehem when he was born. But that’s a transparently terrible argument, since the content of past accounts which Luke is working from (for example, Mark’s, and possibly Matthew’s if you’re one of the growing number of scholars who think Luke had access to Matthew’s gospel) can just as easily (indeed more easily) account for such a constraint on Luke’s story. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/28 "2015-02-23T01:44:50Z")
Greetings SeekerOfTruth and welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board! > [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > All of Paul’s theology is his own, not Jesus’. So, in effect, Paul was the creator of Christianity, not Jesus. Jesus was merely a figurehead to hang Paul’s theology on. I think you over-step some. Mainstream biblical scholarship points to a set of Jesus sayings that were drawn upon by Mark et al. Some of those sayings are reflected in the [Gospel of Thomas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas). I agree that Paul was highly influential, but there’s a separate stream to consider as well. The interesting part of the Gospel of Thomas is that a collection of Jesus sayings was predicted _before_ the discovery of that work. > [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > It’s not doing well. I can show you equally valid studies that say Christianity is dying right now and will be extinct in the 50 years. Those cites seemed pretty tendentious. Moreover they were entirely focused on the US. Finally, they weren’t really studies: they were journalistic opinion pieces. I recommend you look over John Mace’s links. Nitpicking aside, the OP provided a decent argument, considering more than one possibility. I disagree with its general direction, but all the same kudos. ---
**Author:** ![SeekerofTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@SeekerofTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekerofTruth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/29 "2015-02-23T04:05:10Z")
Lots of responses since I stepped away so let me address them by post number: #24: one of the 800 lb gorillas in the room–the chicken or the egg…did Jesus fulfill prophecy or did the writers of the gospels who were intimately familiar with the OT scriptures merely dig through obscure passages that had nothing to do with the Messiah or with Jesus and twist and turn them around to try to fit them to the stories of a Messiah named Jesus floating around 50 years after his death. Psalms 34:20: “He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.” Please tell me what on earth this has to do with Jesus looking from the lens of a writer 1000 years before Jesus lived. Did the psalmist peer a millennium into the future and see Jesus hanging on a cross OR did John peer 1000 years into the past and find a scripture to tag to Jesus’ when he was writing out a narrative of Jesus’ supposed crucifixion and decide that that passage would add nicely to the story he was writing 70 years after the events so he wrote that instead of clubbing Jesus’ legs the soldier lanced Jesus’ side and out gushed blood and water (a variation on turning the water into wine Dionysius legend, possibly?). We have to get real about this. EVERY supposed OT “prophecy” about Jesus is so vague and ambiguous that its language could be molded around any person the writers wanted. “He is a tender shoot”:smack: “He is uncomely in appearance” :smack: :smack: “He will crush your (the serpent’s) head and you (the serpent) will bruise his heel” :smack: :smack: :smack: I mean come on, folks! Does anyone in their right minds actually believe that all this obscure stuff has ANYTHING to do with Jesus in 30 AD?? :eek: This goes to my earlier comment that apologists , men of high IQ like Craig, Habermas, Licona et al try to sell this stuff that 335 inscrutable enigmatic verses out of the OT were fulfilled by Jesus while at the same time totally ignoring prophecies of the Buddha, Krishna and others whose “prophecies” are just as ambiguous. #25 & 26 I really don’t want to turn this from Jesus being real or myth into a discussion of whether Christianity is growing or dying. It’s one of those topics that can be argued either way till the cows come home. Suffice to say that if John Shelby Spong writes that if Christianity doesn’t change, in 50 years it will be extinct–if that doesn’t give Christians a hint that Christianity is going off the rails, then nothing will. #28 I’ve read the Thomas gospel and it’s iconic, that’s for sure. The problem is scholars can’t really date it to earlier than 340 AD so it just joins the plethora of 50-100 other gospels floating around at the time. What’s unusual about it is how characteristic it is of the canonical gospels while at the same time telling some pretty heady things uncharacteristic of what we have come to believe about Jesus. Here’s some dating of Thomas: > [@](#): > > three small fragments from Oxyrynchus date to 200 A.D. and roughly a half dozen allusions from church fathers. The manuscripts discovered at Nag Hammadi date to around 340 A.D., though the original composition of the Gospel of Thomas was definitely before that time, probably sometime around 140 to 180 A.D. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/30 "2015-02-23T04:27:46Z")
The Christian Church in Jerusalem does appear to have existed continuously from the time Jesus is supposed to have died until the city’s destruction by the Romans in 71 A.D., and much of that time it was under the leadership of James the Just, who was the brother of Jesus, or at least Christians believed he was and deferred to him for that reason. (See [_Zealot,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealot:_The_Life_and_Times_of_Jesus_of_Nazareth) by Reza Aslan.) So it seems unlikely Jesus himself was just made up, or conflated from several figures. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/31 "2015-02-23T04:38:20Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > This is partially true. I think the Romans might have viewed Jesus, assuming his story is real, as a “stealth rebel”–one trying to stir up sedition covertly using a message of peace to mask a message of revolt, such as “I came not to bring peace but a sword” and other such puzzling statements that contradicted other things he said like “Blessed are the peacemakers.” Well, it was more like he was a destabilizing force regardless of his intentions. First, his main target was the priestly establishment – because they were working hand in glove with the Romans, who always preferred to rule through local elites if they could. So, between the Romans’ share of the taxes and Herod’s expensive projects and new cities and the priests charging heavily for doing sacrifices and living high on th-- some kosher animal, the common people of Judea were getting sucked dry. But, that was a system that suited the Romans and they didn’t like anyone who posed a threat to it. Second, any Jew who let the people hail him as a king or as the Messiah without Roman permission was a rebel _ipso facto_ regardless of the content of his messages. The province was always on a low boil, there had been countryside rebels and plain bandits claiming the “Messiah” title periodically for years, and anything might set off a revolt – whether its “leader” wanted that or not. Once again, see _Zealot._ It’s well worth a read. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/32 "2015-02-23T04:51:14Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > A third theory is a blending of these two theories: Jesus was a man who was crucified and over hundreds of years was built into a dying/rising god by church fathers whose sole intention was to win more and more converts and thus conglomerate their power as powerful heads of a new religion. So they borrowed the concept of eternal torment in hell from the Greek gnostics in order to bludgeon simple stupid peasants into accepting Christianity under threat of burning in hell forever. Weellll . . . actually, I’m pretty sure Christian doctrine was almost fully developed when Christianity was still an illegal underground religion, and the doctrine of Hell was mainly a fantasy of revenge on their persecutors, though it certainly had antecedents (in Greek mythology, Zoroastrianism, and to some limited extent in Judaism – though it never played any role in Gnosticism AFAIK). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/33 "2015-02-23T04:54:00Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > A mythological Jesus is one of the few ways to explain why all the events portrayed in his life via the gospels can be found in Old Testament stories e.g. slaughter of the innocents and fleeing to Egypt being a retelling of the Moses legend; Jesus walking on water a story from the Odyssey by Homer; dying/rising, virgin birth, 12 disciples; turning water to wine; appearing to disciples after resurrection can all be found in earlier mythologies of Osirus/Horus, Mithras, Dionysius, Romulus, Hercules, Krishna and a dozen others. Earle Doherty (The Jesus Puzzle); Richard Carrier (The Historicity of Jesus) Robert Price (Deconstructing Jesus) and a hundred others have written extensively about the likelihood Jesus was a mythical character borrowed from a dozen other deities. It became such a problem around 300 AD that Christian theologians had to invent the ridiculous excuse that satan knew in advance that Jesus was coming and so went back in time to before Jesus was born in order to set up all these other gods to thwart Jesus’ mission. :smack: I won’t deny that Christianity was shaped by all those influences, but I think a more parsimonious explanation is that they came into it by way of gentile converts bringing traces of their old religious sensibilities with them. Which has nothing to do with the question of whether Jesus existed or not; we’re talking about events after his (purported) life on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/34 "2015-02-23T05:00:14Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > … > > #25 & 26 I really don’t want to turn this from Jesus being real or myth into a discussion of whether Christianity is growing or dying. It’s one of those topics that can be argued either way till the cows come home… If that’s the case, I would recommend that you not make statements such as…_It’s not doing well. I can show you equally valid studies that say Christianity is dying right now and will be extinct in the 50 years\>_. Once you pollute your argument with questionable points you can’t (won’t)support, it sort of kills everything else you’re trying to establish. Jesus is mentioned, and defined, in the Koran as well as the New Testament. His existence is accepted by the Jewish faith, albeit not as the promised messiah. If you’re question is whether he lived or not, there are three diverse beliefs that all hold that he was, in fact, a real individual. If your questioning his divinity, I can assure you such discussion is pointless here. There are those who believe, and those who do not, and I sincerely doubt that there will be much middle ground found here. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/35 "2015-02-23T05:33:25Z")
I hate doing this and I hope I can do this briefly. I’m tired of all the conspiracies about the priests plotting against Yeshua Ben Yosef and getting the Romans to kill him for them. Some 2,000 years ago plus or minus some, Judea was under Roman occupation. And Pax Romana had one major rule. You do anything that hinted of seditious activity against Roman rule, they’d nail you to a cross and let you hang there until you died. Now (or maybe I should say then), Jerusalem was the religious capitol of Judea too. Sort of political, King Herod and his government lived there too, but with Pilate over in Caesarea, Herod’s authority was a bit reduced. Pilate had a garrison in Jerusalem, and between the Roman garrison, the priests (who were the religious leaders) and Herod and his staff, an arrangement was worked out. And every year came Passover, a festival. Which meant a LOT of people from out of town went to Jerusalem for a week long celebration. Think of Ft Lauderdale. There’s not much going on there until Spring Break. So, imagine in Jerusalem a combination of Spring Break AND Mardi Gras, okay? And let’s add to that mix Passover is a celebration the deliverance of the Jewish people from slavery, which could potentially have serious political undertones to Pilate. So, Pilate sends troops over to beef up the garrison in Jerusalem. And he probably sent over to lead the troops a new commander who outranked and temporarily replaced the standing garrison commander. And this new commander didn’t know about and didn’t care about any working arrangements the regular garrison commander had with the natives. Add to this potentially volatile mix yet another itinerant Galilean rabbi. Only this one has a couple thousand followers with him. And their arrival coincided with Passover. And in mutters and whispers, and here and there some joyous shouts, they call this rabbi from the sticks “The King Of The Jews”. So, going by the way Pax Romana works, what do the Romans do to this potential trouble maker? Frankly, other then for making it a good story in a gospel, I can’t imagine any reason for the temporary garrison commander bothering the Roman governor or Judean king over this trifle. It’s not like this guy was a Citizen of Rome, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/36 "2015-02-23T05:37:16Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > #25 & 26 I really don’t want to turn this from Jesus being real or myth into a discussion of whether Christianity is growing or dying. It’s one of those topics that can be argued either way till the cows come home. But… but… that’s what we do here! 😃 I agree though: it’s extra-topical to this thread. > [@](#): > > #28 I’ve read the Thomas gospel and it’s iconic, that’s for sure. The problem is scholars can’t really date it to earlier than 340 AD so it just joins the plethora of 50-100 other gospels floating around at the time. What’s unusual about it is how characteristic it is of the canonical gospels while at the same time telling some pretty heady things uncharacteristic of what we have come to believe about Jesus. Ok, let me quote wikipedia: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Richard Valantasis writes: ``` Assigning a date to the Gospel of Thomas is very complex because it is difficult to know precisely to what a date is being assigned. Scholars have proposed a date as early as 40 AD or as late as 140 AD, depending upon whether the Gospel of Thomas is identified with the original core of sayings, or with the author's published text, or with the Greek or Coptic texts, or with parallels in other literature.[27] ``` Valantasis and other scholars argue that it is difficult to date Thomas because, as a collection of logia without a narrative framework, individual sayings could have been added to it gradually over time.[28] (However, Valantasis does date Thomas to 100 – 110 AD, with some of the material certainly coming from the first stratum which is dated to 30 – 60 AD.[29]) [/QUOTE] [Q source - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source) What I _really_ was pushing though were variants of the [Q theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source). There’s plenty in the gospels that isn’t aggressively Pauline. Furthermore, I’d hypothesize that Paul’s branch wouldn’t have succeeded if it strayed too far from the central core. (Luke/Acts gives the official view in some detail.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/37 "2015-02-23T05:46:21Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Many cults, if not most, were founded by actual, singular individuals claiming divine revelation. If Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, or Hong Xiuquan lived thousands of years ago and were only known through fragmentary second hand accounts years after their death people would be wondering if they were actual people too. These guys aren’t the Jesus of their movements, they’re the Paul. Jesus is the Moroni/Xenu/(ironically)Jesus of their movements. ---
**Author:** ![SeekerofTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@SeekerofTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekerofTruth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/38 "2015-02-23T05:50:18Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If that’s the case, I would recommend that you not make statements such as…_It’s not doing well. I can show you equally valid studies that say Christianity is dying right now and will be extinct in the 50 years\>_. > > Once you pollute your argument with questionable points you can’t (won’t)support, it sort of kills everything else you’re trying to establish. > Jesus is mentioned, and defined, in the Koran as well as the New Testament. His existence is accepted by the Jewish faith, albeit not as the promised messiah. If you’re question is whether he lived or not, there are three diverse beliefs that all hold that he was, in fact, a real individual. If your questioning his divinity, I can assure you such discussion is pointless here. There are those who believe, and those who do not, and I sincerely doubt that there will be much middle ground found here. Again, my intention here is not to split hairs with you on the matter. Christianity has some serious problems with declining membership, if not the population in general then certainly with the 18-30 college-educated crowd; that much is indisputable. Enough experts have come forward to state something to that effect and where there’s smoke there’s fire. There’s no need for either of us to write a dissertation to pick the issue apart. ---
**Author:** ![SeekerofTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@SeekerofTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekerofTruth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/39 "2015-02-23T06:08:07Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > But… but… that’s what we do here! 😃 Oh, well in that case…🙂 > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I agree though: it’s extra-topical to this thread. Ok, let me quote wikipedia: [Q source - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source) > > What I _really_ was pushing though were variants of the [Q theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source). There’s plenty in the gospels that isn’t aggressively Pauline. Furthermore, I’d hypothesize that Paul’s branch wouldn’t have succeeded if it strayed too far from the central core. (Luke/Acts gives the official view in some detail.) I’d only bring up what divides the Christian community doctrinally above all else and that is two articles of faith: Paul says, “By grace are you saved, not by works.” To which the other crowd says, “Faith without works is dead”. Then there are the apologists who try to marry these two diametrically-opposing doctrines, “Well, yes James says this but what he’s really referring to aligns with Paul’s doctrine beautifully so there’s actually no disagreement.” And I read this and just shake my head. It’s like a three-ring circus in which the clowns have taken over the asylum when you get these apologists together to try to explain clear inconsistencies. And then I go right back to, "How on earth do men with IQ’s in the 140-160 range actually try to pass off these half-baked apologies as serious scholarship? :smack: Clearly more than doctrine is involved here. These men have devoted most of their lives to pushing the Bible as the inerrant world of God. The Internet age has shattered the myth of the infallibility of the Bible, which is partly why so many young people called the “nones” are turning their backs on Christianity and walking away. [https://www.barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/528-six-reasons-young-christians-leave-church](https://www.barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/528-six-reasons-young-christians-leave-church) These churchmen have their whole lives invested in Christianity so for them to make a 180 degree turn is unthinkable. They’d lose their livelihood; their families would shatter; divorce; estrangement; the list of horrors goes on. This is why the Clergy project was founded: pastors living a lie–they just couldn’t believe in Jesus and Christianity anymore (we won’t get into the God atheist aspects) nor could they go on preaching it, but they were very cognizant of the fact that if they came out of the closet their lives would be ruined. They had to find coping mechanisms and the Clergy Project was one of those mechanisms. > **[Nonreligious Questions](https://www.patheos.com/nonreligious-questions/)** > > Whether you’ve been turned off by religion in the past or have a question about one of the world’s religions, check out what Patheos has to offer. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/40 "2015-02-23T13:05:42Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If that’s the case, I would recommend that you not make statements such as…_It’s not doing well. I can show you equally valid studies that say Christianity is dying right now and will be extinct in the 50 years\>_. > > Once you pollute your argument with questionable points you can’t (won’t)support, it sort of kills everything else you’re trying to establish. > Jesus is mentioned, and defined, in the Koran as well as the New Testament. His existence is accepted by the Jewish faith, albeit not as the promised messiah. If you’re question is whether he lived or not, there are three diverse beliefs that all hold that he was, in fact, a real individual. If your questioning his divinity, I can assure you such discussion is pointless here. There are those who believe, and those who do not, and I sincerely doubt that there will be much middle ground found here. If one reads the Psalm 81 or 82 depending on what version of the bible you read, then read John 10 it would seem that Jesus didn’t consider himself any more god than any other person. He reminded his accusers that their fathers also called God their fathers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360.md?page=3)