# Was Jesus Real or a Myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360 "2015-02-22T18:39:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/141 "2015-02-25T08:45:21Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Ahh, but I never said you were happy about not having first hand accounts. I said you were happy to accept the fact that you \*do \*have second hand accounts. True, but then again the fact that they are second or third hand sources has to be taken into account in the contextualization of the information those sources provide. I.e. we must always account for the fact that they \*may \*just be a fat load of crapola. Ultimately, history is about an amorphous consensus of scholars (…that sounded more Lovecraftian than it really needed to be) - not about hard facts or “the truth”. Especially when it comes to pre-Renaissance stuff, since as you note the sources and archaeological data we have to go with is very limited. As a result, a lot of what we “know” is just guesses and assumptions. For example, the story of how the Spartans would enforce primitive eugenics and throw “weak” babies off a cliff has long been held for true, all because of one non-Spartan but intensely Lacedemophile source. Yet there recently were archaeo digs at the bottom of those cliffs and while bones dated to that era were found, no babies, only adults, adults that moreover bore marks of violence so it is assumed they were criminals or prisoners of war. So now historians are split between “they must not have thrown away their babies \*en masse \*after all” and “maybe they did, just not there, lots of cliffs to go around”. And both theories are just as “correct” IMO. The more unique sources we can gather on a particular event, the less chances it’s all made up, naturally ; but the amount of sources is not in and of itself an indicator of truthiness - they could also all be cribbing from the same original, bogus source. See Atlantis, for example. The volume of written material accumulated on the subject of Atlantis over the centuries is staggering. Yet we’re preeeetty sure there never weren’t no Atlantis nowhere. Of course, the same is true of first-hand accounts, and even \*more \*so of autobiographical sources - as my Modern History teacher would say, “whenever you’re confronted with a historical text, always bear in mind that the writer or writers are lying bastards and partisan hacks. Your job is to try and determine what they’re bullshitting you about _exactly_” :). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/142 "2015-02-25T08:52:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Where are the physical artefacts of Jesus’ existence? Well we’ve got enough shards of the True Cross floating around to build a moderate-sized ship with, and at least \*eight \*unique Holy Foreskins that I know of ; what more do you need ?! ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/143 "2015-02-25T08:53:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What about physical artefacts, such as coinage minted at the time of his reign and bearing his name? Or the actual, undisputed tomb of his father (not some likely forgery with ambiguous, regionally-common names) > > Where are the physical artefacts of Jesus’ existence? 😕 What physical artifacts would you expect to exist that are related to a carpenter ~33AD? It seems that you are asking for evidence that couldn’t exist or, if it did exist, would actually contradict the existence of Jesus as described. That is neither logically valid nor honest. An honest inquiry would be “What evidence that we would expect to exist is missing”, not “What evidence that couldn’t exist can I claim doesn’t exist”. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/144 "2015-02-25T08:57:23Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > I don’t mind defending, but Champion refutes every single source I raise. In a formal debate, if your opponent refutes every single source you raise, that is how you know that you are losing. In an academic debate, if your opponent refutes every single source you raise, that is how you know that you are _wrong_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/145 "2015-02-25T09:29:08Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > 😕 > What physical artifacts would you expect to exist that are related to a carpenter ~33AD? None. I’m _not_ saying that the non-existence of physical evidence _proves_ Jesus didn’t exist, I’m saying the existence of Alexander (or Caesar, that other perennial favourite) _doesn’t_ hinge on textual evidence alone, and it’s somewhat disingenuous to seem to imply that that’s the case, or imply there’s equal amounts of evidence for those figures and Jesus, because there flat-out isn’t - there’s overwhelmingly more physical evidence for those rulers than for Jesus. Entire cities worth of evidence. Whereas for Jesus, textual is all there is and likely will be, forged brother-tombs and shrouds notwithstanding. I’m not a _complete_ mythicist (any more) but I still recognize the “we have just as much evidence for Caesar” argument as a stupid one to be dismissed out of hand. And boy, do I hate the spelling “artifact” ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/146 "2015-02-25T09:45:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I I still recognize the “we have just as much evidence for Caesar” argument as a stupid one to be dismissed out of hand. Well it’s a good thing nobody ever made any such an argument then, isn’t it? Look, if you want to construct strawmen, that’s fine. I would just prefer that you didn’t quote me when you do so. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/147 "2015-02-25T09:50:36Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Well it’s a good thing nobody ever made any such argument then, isn’t it. If this isn’t a restatement of that very stance, then what is it?: [QUOTE=Blake] Simple question: Do you believe that Alexander the Great existed? Then provide eyewitness accounts and/or actual historical records of the day that establishes his fact. [/QUOTE] The only proof you’re demanding there is textual. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/148 "2015-02-25T09:52:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If this isn’t a restatement of that very stance, then what is it?: It’s a strawman. Pure, simple and clear. Read this entire exchange again, and if you admit that you still don’t get it I will spell it out for you… on the proviso that you agree to apologise when I do so. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/149 "2015-02-25T10:01:13Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It’s a strawman. Pure, simple and clear. Look, if I was attributing a stance to you you didn’t actually hold, tell me what I got wrong, and I’ll apologize. But you _are_ only asking for textual evidence there, so… ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/150 "2015-02-25T10:12:37Z")
Come now, **SeekerofTruth** , we both know one needn’t be a scholar in order to a) read books, and b) provide cites. And nobody asked you to write “long dissertations”; people simply asked you to provide cites, which is perfectly normal S.O.P. around these parts. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/151 "2015-02-25T10:15:33Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It’s a strawman. Pure, simple and clear. > Read this entire exchange again, and if you admit that you still don’t get it I will spell it out for you… on the proviso that you agree to apologise when I do so. I think this is a bit of an unfair accusation. The “We have the same amount of evidence for Alexander as for Jesus” is a well established ‘argument’. Your nuance in this particular exchange is easy to miss. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/152 "2015-02-25T10:19:58Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Your nuance in this particular exchange is easy to miss. I know\* I\* have. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/153 "2015-02-25T10:26:06Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > The “We have the same amount of evidence for Alexander as for Jesus” is a well established ‘argument’. And if you have evidence that anybody in this debate has made such an argument, then present it. If not, please stop quoting me when you construct your strawman. “Others have made this argument, so that’s the one I am going to argue against” is about the laziest and most dishonest form of debate imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/154 "2015-02-25T10:28:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But you are only asking for textual evidence there, so… No, I’m not. But you have conclusively demonsteated that you have no interested in an honest debate and are only interested in demolishing strawmen. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/155 "2015-02-25T10:30:34Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No, I’m not. Yes, you are. " eyewitness accounts and/or actual historical records of the day" are what you asked for _and all you asked for_. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/156 "2015-02-25T10:44:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, you are. " eyewitness accounts and/or actual historical records of the day" are what you asked for _and all you asked for_. Yep, because I wasn’t responding to another post at all, so context doesn’t matter. Oh hang on! Yes i was. And I even quoted it. But never mind. You enjoy your strawmen. I will seek honest debate elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/157 "2015-02-25T11:03:52Z")
Right… Bye then. Now, as a follower of the debate, I would like more actual examples of where the Jesus myth is supposed to be a simple rip off of other religions. No doubt that certain ‘pagan’ elements were absorbed and transformed within Christianity, like the Mother-Son theme/worship of Mary and Jesus or the celebration of christmass or the presence of so many Saints. Other claims, like about Osiris, need some more explainatory work. What I recall is that Osiris was re-assembled by his mum, not a ressurection as such. So, yes more details please. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/158 "2015-02-25T11:17:54Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Yep, because I wasn’t responding to another post at all, so context doesn’t matter. > > Oh hang on! Yes i was. And I even quoted it. Wait - are you saying when you said " That’s because actual historians do not require eyewitness accounts of ancient figures to be certain of their existence." you were _including_ material evidence in that reasoning? Because the rest of the conversation after that seemed to indicate you were talking about historians being satisfied with secondhand textual accounts only. But if you meant to include artefacts, then sure, I misunderstood your position, and I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/159 "2015-02-25T11:23:18Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Right… Bye then. > > Now, as a follower of the debate, I would like more actual examples of where the Jesus myth is supposed to be a simple rip off of other religions. I must admit, i don’t know which other religions include a zombie uprising as part of their resurrection myths 🙂 I’ve always found that the comparative religion arguments sound like everyone advocating them read the\* Golden Bough\* at too early an age. Eventually they all end up too _Da Vinci Code_sque. Like I said elsewhere, nobody gives people enough credit for just plain making shit up. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/160 "2015-02-25T12:10:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve always found that the comparative religion arguments sound like everyone advocating them read the\* Golden Bough\* at too early an age. Pretty much, yeah. That line of thought pre-dates Sir James’ book by at least a century, though. It first popped up among 18th century “gentleman amateurs,” who - and here I’ll be lazy and just cite from an old post o’ mine - > [@](#): > > playing fast and loose with the historical evidence, came up with the idea that way back in the day, mankind worshipped the sun and its passage through the zodiac, “creating an astronomical religion whose vestiges survive throughout the known world, and which is the origin of all known religions, including Christianity.” > > It was all bullshit and unfounded flights of fancy, but hey, it was a nice, roundabout way of sticking it to the (Christian) man, and so the idea spread – early occultists such as Britten, Blavatsky etc. digged it, took it up, and switched out a few details in the process (for example, adding or subtracting phallus-worship to the mix, depending on one’s sensibility). > > Over the next hundred years or so, increased specialization proved [them all] wrong. Of course, some people didn’t listen. _Vide_ the Zeitgeist crowd, Bill Maher, and other assorted kooks, endlessly regurgitating the bad old crapola of Higgins, Massey, Dupuis, de Volney, Taylor, Blavatsky, Britten, etc., etc., _ad nauseam_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360.md?page=9)