# Was Jesus Real or a Myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360 "2015-02-22T18:39:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/161 "2015-02-25T12:49:48Z")
Oh yeah - it’s the same mindset that gave us the great Earth Mother of the pacifist, matriarchal, sexually-free Old Europeans, of Gimbutas _et al_ - so beloved of NeoPagans. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/162 "2015-02-25T13:07:38Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > So let’s go to Josephus’ own words on this one (Testimonium Flavium): > \* > About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. \* Let me explain that. 1. Someone made up a story. 2. Someone else believed it. Gullibility runs rampant, but neither (1) nor (2) makes it a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/163 "2015-02-25T14:51:42Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > I don’t mind defending, but Champion refutes every single source I raise. I’m not drawing this stuff off crazed bloggers; I’m drawing it off reputable scholars which Champion then goes on to say are not reputable scholars, no matter who I source. At that point it’s not authority, it’s opinion. Carrier and Price are just as respected in the circle of scholars as are Champions, but I imagine Champion draws a tight little network of unknown scholars around him who agree with most of what he and his idols teach. Anything outside that tight little network is rubbish. > > Or maybe a I capsulize an argument the author made and then Champion retorts, “Have you read the book?” Well, no I haven’t read the book. Am I suppose to read the entire library before I make a commentary? I’m not a scholar but I try to get as close to reliable source as I can and if it’s a source like Richard Carrier, Champion comes in and says, “Well, on page 93 sentence 35, words 3 through 13 he says Osirus might have been sliced into three sections not four and his penis was not cut off as the legend goes so that proves Osirus could not have been the source for Jesus supposedly riding into Jerusalem on two donkeys” or some other intellectual gibberish. I mean it’s like he’s trying either to prove he’s some great scholar who reads 200 books a week on this stuff or he argues just for the sake of trying to win a point. > > My arguments are not scholarly. I don’t pretend to be a scholar and if being a scholar as well-read as Champion were a criteria for commenting on this board there’d be nobody here but Champion. That’s how it lays. I’m sorry. YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH! Sorry, I’ve been wanting to do that for a while now. When, as support for your arguments, you make claims as wrong as “the Book of Acts … was likely written a few centuries after the events,” you should expect to be challenged on it. I was tempted to say something, but **ITR Champion** refuted it better than I could have. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/164 "2015-02-25T15:01:31Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > You mean like the “actual, undisputed tomb of his father”? Good luck with that one. 😉 Isn’t Pantera buried, somewhere in Germany? 😛 Done and done. Jesus existed. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/165 "2015-02-25T18:29:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > We mathematicians do lots of proofs. Historians generally don’t. The enormous majority of historical writing, in my experience, makes no mention of proof. > > Generally when there’s a reference to an individual in ancient historical writing, historians will proceed under the assumption that the person existed, unless there’s a very strong argument to the contrary. For example, Spartacus is known from just two historical sources, both written more than a century after the event. I have never seen anyone doubt his existence. Many pre-Socratic philosophers are known from just a few sentences, written several centuries after their death. I have never seen anyone doubt their existence either. > > With Jesus we have an extremely large body of writing, written remarkably soon after the event, and of relativity high quality. (The gospels are unusually detailed and precise, when contrasted with other biographies from ancient times.) Hence there’s virtually unanimous agreement that Jesus existed. Actually, I understand it that if there is only one or two references to a historical figure, then Historians say “We have a reference that says…” or, “Plutarch gives an account of”. To have something verified as a true historical fact they need multiple unbiased sources, do they not? Maybe they break the rules with Spartacus, but, they shouldn’t. Spartacus could easily be a made up boogeyman to scare Romans into watching over their slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/166 "2015-02-25T19:07:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > To have something verified as a true historical fact they need multiple unbiased sources, do they not? I am not a historian, but I think **ITR** ’s point is that historians aren’t in the business of certifying that something is a True Historical Fact. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/167 "2015-02-25T19:19:39Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I am not a historian, but I think **ITR** ’s point is that historians aren’t in the business of certifying that something is a True Historical Fact. so you’re disputing the claim that historians treat a historical figure that has multiple, unbiased references differently than they do a figure that has a vague one line reference written via heresay ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/168 "2015-02-25T19:29:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so you’re disputing the claim that historians treat a historical figure that has multiple, unbiased references differently than they do a figure that has a vague one line reference written via heresay That’s not what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/169 "2015-02-25T19:34:00Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > That’s not what I said. yeah, but it’s the real bottom line isint it? one line in a book about a guy who lived two villages over 20 years in the past who was the brother of someone else doesnt really prove anything, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/170 "2015-02-25T19:36:14Z")
What _does_ “prove anything”? What do you mean by “proof”? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/171 "2015-02-25T19:42:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What _does_ “prove anything”? What do you mean by “proof”? Prove: to show the existence, truth, or correctness of (something) by using evidence, logic, etc. Proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth. ---
**Author:** ![SeekerofTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@SeekerofTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekerofTruth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/172 "2015-02-25T20:42:27Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH! > Sorry, I’ve been wanting to do that for a while now. > > When, as support for your arguments, you make claims as wrong as “the Book of Acts … was likely written a few centuries after the events,” you should expect to be challenged on it. I was tempted to say something, but **ITR Champion** refuted it better than I could have. Here’s the truth about Acts as I read in Wiki and other sources which back Wiki: There several possibilities for who Theophilus was, so Acts might date to the time of Paul (highly unlikely) all the way up to the 3rd-4th century (more likely). Who knows which one the author of ACTS was referring to. One guess is as good as the other, so the Christian apologists will go with 60 AD while doubters will go with Theophilus of Alexandria in the 4th century. Until an authentic copy shows up that dates earlier than the 2nd century your guess is as good as mine. ---
**Author:** ![SeekerofTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@SeekerofTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekerofTruth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/173 "2015-02-25T20:52:23Z")
Sorry, mistake above I was referring to Theophius of Antioch bishop of Caesaria Maritima in the second century ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/174 "2015-02-25T20:59:46Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Here’s the truth about Acts as I read in Wiki and other sources which back Wiki: > > There several possibilities for who Theophilus was, so Acts might date to the time of Paul (highly unlikely) all the way up to the 3rd-4th century (more likely). I am looking at the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles), and I am baffled as to where you are getting the “3rd-4th century” from, unless you’re somehow confusing that fact that the earliest _manuscripts_ we currently have date from then with the idea that that’s when the content itself was originally written. But I know of no reputable scholar, Christian or non, who dates Acts that late. > [@](#): > > Most experts date the composition of Luke-Acts to around 80-90 CE, although some suggest 90-110. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/175 "2015-02-26T00:23:03Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > It’s not doing well. I can show you equally valid studies that say Christianity is dying right now and will be extinct in the 50 years\> > > [http://www.salon.com/2014/02/28/the\_dying\_right\_why\_christian\_fundamentalists\_are\_in\_panic\_mode\_partner/](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/28/the_dying_right_why_christian_fundamentalists_are_in_panic_mode_partner/) > > [Why Christianity Is Dying While Spirituality Is Thriving | HuffPost Religion](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-mcswain/christianity-is-dying-spirituality-is-thriving_b_1950804.html) > > Simply google “Christianity is dying” and you will get more than ample evidence it is. lol, salon and huffpo. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/176 "2015-02-26T00:25:38Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > …(in reality there were hundreds of Jesuses roaming the area at the time preaching that they were the Messiah)… Are you stating this as a fact, or referenceing what the second line of argument is? If as a fact, then I’d like a cite, please. If as a reference, I’ll keep a sock in it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/177 "2015-02-26T00:44:26Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > Here’s the truth about Acts as I read in Wiki and other sources which back Wiki: > > There several possibilities for who Theophilus was, so Acts might date to the time of Paul (highly unlikely) all the way up to the 3rd-4th century (more likely). Who knows which one the author of ACTS was referring to. One guess is as good as the other, so the Christian apologists will go with 60 AD while doubters will go with Theophilus of Alexandria in the 4th century. Until an authentic copy shows up that dates earlier than the 2nd century your guess is as good as mine. You need a better variety of kook from whom to get your information. Theophilos simply means “God Lover” and it is unlikely that it refers to any actual person rather than being a generic address to the Christian community. Given that Acts is included in the Muratorian Canon, dating to around 170, any claim that moves it to the third century is bogus. As ITR champion noted, writers of the second century quoted and referenced it. Your dates are just silly. (And no serious Christian scholar would date Acts to 60, so even that part of your claim is nonsense.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/178 "2015-02-26T00:52:28Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > I will say I never write anything without having sourced it in some way or read it somewhere. Some things I cannot source without hours of research, and then just so you can again call it fraud or inaccurate. You’re perfectly free to call me on things I state but you’ll have to do the legwork to prove me wrong. That is really NOT how it works. If you make a claim, it is up to you to support it. We have no obligation to disprove anything. We can simply dismiss your claims as something you misread, misunderstood, or imagined. If you wish to present a thesis, it is up to you to defend it. Given the number of errors you have posted, thus.far, that have been refuted, you might want to go back, re-read your sources, taking notes, this time, so that you can support your claims. ---
**Author:** ![SeekerofTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@SeekerofTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeekerofTruth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/179 "2015-02-26T04:04:12Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I am looking at the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles), and I am baffled as to where you are getting the “3rd-4th century” from, unless you’re somehow confusing that fact that the earliest _manuscripts_ we currently have date from then with the idea that that’s when the content itself was originally written. But I know of no reputable scholar, Christian or non, who dates Acts that late. You’re correct. In post #173 I corrected myself as I meant to say Theophilus of Antioch, not Alexandria. Some scholars believe the writer of Acts was writing to Theophilus of Antioch in the middle of the 2nd Century. That would remove the writer from Paul by at least 100 years, therefore the writer could not have accompanied Paul on his journeys and therefore would not have observed the events recorded in Acts first-hand. Obviously then the writer is getting all his stories of Peter and Paul second, third, fourth…the sky’s the limit…hand. :dubious: I’m a skeptic, as you can tell. Unless there’s concrete evidence I go with the doubters. Too much of this stuff is taken on blind faith and Christians parade blind faith as if it were some kind of virtue and it’s not. It’s pure foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360/180 "2015-02-26T04:17:00Z")
> [@SeekerofTruth](#): > > I’m a skeptic, as you can tell. Unless there’s concrete evidence I go with the doubters. Sometime, try being skeptical of the skeptics, and doubting the doubters. It’s only fair… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-real-or-a-myth/713360.md?page=10)