# Was Jesus' resurrection theologically necessary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038 "2010-04-05T16:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/101 "2010-04-10T21:29:25Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Strange, but I have peace without the beliefs you have and since you are no authority of what God does,wants or says I and any other person being lead by the Holy Spirit has the exact same authority that Jesus has, as God is one. > [@](#): > > I just could not possibly believe a supreme being could act or be so foolish and illogical. If God doesn’t deal in facts than your whole argument is moot. God could not possibly be that ignorant to dispel logic and have any intellegence at all. You are using a very shaky foundation that humans are capable of discovering truths. Poltious Pilate, a man who seemed to be well acquainted with dealing with facts in his line of work, admitted he didn’t know what truth is, asking/saying to Jesus ‘what is truth’, probably one of the wisest things Pilate ever said IMHO. > [@](#): > > If your God doesn’t deal in facts, then he doesn’t deal in truth, for facts are truth not fables. > > Your beliefs help you and so go for it, but as for me, My God would have to be smarter, kinder, and more loving that that. Good luck on your God search and God bless. ---
**Author:** ![happydays546](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f14d63/32.png) [@happydays546](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happydays546)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/102 "2010-04-10T21:36:48Z")
Yes it was one hundred percent theologically necessary, there are many reasons for this the first being that he said he would, the second being that the disciple Thomas said he would not believe until he felt the wounds in Jesus’ hands, the third point is that there were many prophecies that needed to be fulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/103 "2010-04-10T21:37:45Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Then I have a question. As, ultimately, creations of God, are we not affected with the blessing of his nobility? Yes, see prodigal son, we squander this. > [@](#): > > And considering that he is the ultimate good, while any evil we may commit is going to be finite in nature, doesn’t that blessing overwhelm any kind of sin we might commit? Sin enslaves, so it’s not a one time payment as such but a ongoing condemnation that one can never pay back, but will always try. This is the trap. > [@](#): > > To say that we could commit a sin or some evil that would damn us would be to say that God’s goodness is finite (and incredibly limited, at that). Again we will continue to pay for a sin forever till it is forgiven, which comes through Jesus. I don’t believe in a created being suffering forever, I don’t believe scriptures support that though it comes very close, but doesn’t cross the line IMHO. Also with Jesus overcoming the grave, death is no longer a barrier to salvation. But God is willing to let our life get harder and harder till we come to our senses and come home, then Jesus will come to that person, even in Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/104 "2010-04-10T21:54:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I and any other person being lead by the Holy Spirit has the exact same authority that Jesus has, as God is one. I just want to clarify here that this is not a theological point that the Christian church would agree with. In fact we are held to Jesus’ authority as He is God and we are not. I am not saying other people don’t believe this as you do, but if this thread is asking about accepted Christian theology, traditional Christian theology does not accept that we can say things that contradict the Bible with the same authority that Jesus did. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/105 "2010-04-11T00:16:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes it was one hundred percent theologically necessary, there are many reasons for this the first being that he said he would, the second being that the disciple Thomas said he would not believe until he felt the wounds in Jesus’ hands, the third point is that there were many prophecies that needed to be fulfilled. On your second point, Thomas may have needed proof before he would believe. But that makes him no different than millions of others. Why did God give him proof and not give it to all those others? As for your first and third points, they seem a circular argument. Saying Jesus had to be resurrected because he said he would be resurrected only moves us to the next question: was it necessary for him to say it? Jesus and the prohecies could have just as easily predicted he was going to die and not be resurrected - or predicted he would live to be 500 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/106 "2010-04-11T02:31:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Saying Jesus had to be resurrected because he said he would be resurrected only moves us to the next question: was it necessary for him to say it? Jesus and the prohecies could have just as easily predicted he was going to die and not be resurrected - or predicted he would live to be 500 years old. And most of the prophecies were written after the event, so it was easy to get them to agree with the facts. It’s also likely that the “facts” were made to conform to earlier “prophecies,” even if those prophecies were misinterpreted or stretched a bit. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/107 "2010-04-11T11:30:46Z")
> [@Velma](#): > > Does knowing something is going to happen make it your fault? Where does free will come in? ETA: The boundaries were established ahead of time. Man was not completely ignorant. I have a 5 year old and I tell him the rules, even though I know he will not be able to keep them, because he is 5 and will make mistakes. But he is still disciplined for disobeying. Should I not give him consequences because he cannot possibly obey every time? > > Would you consider a God who made us unable to _not_ choose Him more loving? Would it have been better to not have been created at all? > > If you are going to have a relationship with another being, there has to be choice or there is no real love. You have a kind of Stepford relationship. > > (And He did not make a person take the rap…He Himself took the rap.) God is supposed to know all things before they happen, so he must have known that the humans he created would be flawed, so he is responsible for the flaw, just as a auto maker or maker of any product is at fault for a flawed article. He keeps His relationship with His children on a just Faith basis(keeps Himself hidden from them) and if a human father did this He would not be considered a good father, nor would a human father who expected his children just to believe in him even if he kept himself from them. We only know of, or heard about such a being from another human, and humans like to make up stories to keep people in line. Being created is one thing, being used as a pawn in a big game is another: Do what you will,but if if is not my choice I will make you suffer for all eternity is not a loving action. If a father tells his child through some people who like to lie or make up things,your father wants you to suffer so people will know what suffering is, then no, that is not an act of a loving father but an abusive one. The Bible is the work,word, of humans just as the Koran, so I do not put any stock in the Bible even though there are some good ideas in it, there is no sign of a loving father as far as I can see. If a human father acted like Him we would put him in jail. This God you believe in creates a son who has a human mother, then lets Him suffer for a few hours,dies for a few hours and then returns to someplace in the sky, seems like an act of some one who didn’t know what he was doing to begin with. Of course I do not believe in the Genesis account, it seems to be too foolish for a Supreme being to do. Sounds to me like some wild story someone came up with when not much education was the norm. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/108 "2010-04-11T11:40:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I and any other person being lead by the Holy Spirit has the exact same authority that Jesus has, as God is one. > You are using a very shaky foundation that humans are capable of discovering truths. Poltious Pilate, a man who seemed to be well acquainted with dealing with facts in his line of work, admitted he didn’t know what truth is, asking/saying to Jesus ‘what is truth’, probably one of the wisest things Pilate ever said IMHO. > Good luck on your God search and God bless. I am not searching for God, God would not need to be searched for. Jesus said he was the truth. Truth is was is. No reason to wonder what some person wrote that Pilot said. How do you know the Holy spirit isn’t leading me to see the flaws in your reasoning? It is rather arrogant to think you have all the anwers, and I doubt that God could be that unknowing, unloving, as you portray Him to be. What does God Bless mean? It is not a prayer, how can you imply that One is not blessed, or why would God need you to tell Him some one needs to be blessed? It is like telling a father who just fed his child feed your child, or care for your child, who is already cared for. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/109 "2010-04-11T15:02:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Sin enslaves, so it’s not a one time payment as such but a ongoing condemnation that one can never pay back, but will always try. This is the trap. No, I don’t believe that works through. If sin is ultimate, and we inherit the curse of those before us, then we inherit, at least in part, the cost of ultimate sin many times over, and then (likely enough) compound it. That leads to a couple of problems; firstly, that the vast majority of the sin we have to atone for actually isn’t ours, but our forebears, which seems entirely unjust; but it also means that God’s blessing isn’t ultimate. That it is defeated, many, many times over. That God’s good pales hugely in significance to the possible sinfulness of even one person. It’s like comparing a hugely deep well to a stepladder; the ladder’s much less impressive in comparison. > [@](#): > > But God is willing to let our life get harder and harder till we come to our senses and come home, then Jesus will come to that person, even in Hell. I recall you speaking to me before about how even people who believe themselves servants of God may actually be be wrong, but are being used by God in order to further his plan. On that basis, your point isn’t accuate - in some cases, God may well let life get harder while decreasing the chance we come to our sense; or even make it seem better while covering our eyes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/110 "2010-04-11T19:34:24Z")
> [@happydays546](#): > > Yes it was one hundred percent theologically necessary, there are many reasons for this the first being that he said he would, the second being that the disciple Thomas said he would not believe until he felt the wounds in Jesus’ hands, the third point is that there were many prophecies that needed to be fulfilled. I don’t see the second point as relevant: Thomas needed to feel the wounds to believe the guy in front of him was Jesus, but that _ **doesn’t** _ mean Thomas needed to feel the wounds to believe Jesus died for his sins. I mean, imagine a _ **literal** _ sacrificial lamb: imagine you honestly believe a given piece of livestock died for your sins on the altar, and imagine you’re later shown a lamb and told it’s the one you saw getting ritually killed the other day. You may well insist – as Thomas did – on inspecting the body before you’d accept the _ **latter** _ claim, but couldn’t you already believe the first part regardless of whether you believed the lamb returned from the dead? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/111 "2010-04-11T21:21:33Z")
> [@Velma](#): > > I just want to clarify here that this is not a theological point that the Christian church would agree with. In fact we are held to Jesus’ authority as He is God and we are not. > > I am not saying other people don’t believe this as you do, but if this thread is asking about accepted Christian theology, traditional Christian theology does not accept that we can say things \*\*that contradict the Bible \*\*with the same authority that Jesus did. Bold mine, I never claim that you can contradict the ‘Bible’, but can certainly contradict a interpretation of the Bible, you can not contradict the Word of God. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/112 "2010-04-11T21:28:35Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > No, I don’t believe that works through. If sin is ultimate, and we inherit the curse of those before us, then we inherit, at least in part, the cost of ultimate sin many times over, and then (likely enough) compound it. That leads to a couple of problems; firstly, that the vast majority of the sin we have to atone for actually isn’t ours, but our forebears, which seems entirely unjust; but it also means that God’s blessing isn’t ultimate. That it is defeated, many, many times over. That God’s good pales hugely in significance to the possible sinfulness of even one person. It’s like comparing a hugely deep well to a stepladder; the ladder’s much less impressive in comparison. God speaks of this, first there is a non-symmetry, sins are to the 3rd or 4th generation, blessings to 1000’s. And yes it’s unjust, this is the Satanic system that we bought. This is what Jesus came to undo, partly because it’s unfair. > [@](#): > > I recall you speaking to me before about how even people who believe themselves servants of God may actually be be wrong, but are being used by God in order to further his plan. IIRC This was if a believe had a wrong concept, God may have them continue in it and that would somehow serve Him, till God wanted to correct this. One may have to have certain beliefs to lead a church, which are not scriptural, but God may allow you to have those beliefs so you can get that position and reach those people. You may be teaching the wrong thing on that point, but may be teaching many more right things, and God can correct that error later. The main thing is Christ is made known. > [@](#): > > On that basis, your point isn’t accuate - in some cases, God may well let life get harder while decreasing the chance we come to our sense; or even make it seem better while covering our eyes. God works in all ways, but many times He lets things run it’s course till there is nothing left, i.e. the prodigal son. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/113 "2010-04-11T21:33:34Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What does God Bless mean? It is not a prayer, how can you imply that One is not blessed, or why would God need you to tell Him some one needs to be blessed? It is like telling a father who just fed his child feed your child, or care for your child, who is already cared for. The greatest blessing is being fruitful, to reap a bountiful harvest of what you have sown. It is a request for God to multiply your harvest, may you reap in much good. God wants a relationship with His children. Yes He knows, but wants us to talk to Him. God loves it when one of His children come to talk with Him. He is the King of the universe, and we as His little child can come, sit on His lap and talk to Him at any time and He will make time for us anytime we want. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/114 "2010-04-12T02:28:07Z")
> [@Velma](#): > > Everyone has a world view. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven, for example. What specific claims do you feel Christianity makes that are accepted on blind faith (that other people don’t make the same kinds of faith claims about?) I’m not sure what you mean by that bit in parentheses. But concerning Christianity, there are several key components of that theology that must be accepted on faith, even if we accept the existence of a higher power. That we have some debt to pay for salvation is such a belief. That Jesus was God who paid that debt by becoming mortal and being crucified. That belief in Jesus as saviour is the only way to salvation. That the Bible is the word of God and the only word of God, and it was part of God’s plan that it serve that purpose. {No support for that in scripture or otherwise} If so many key components are accepted through blind faith then it’s hard to make a case that Christianity is built on logic and reason. > [@](#): > > When justice is carried out, the wrong needs to be made right. If a criminal stole your wallet, it is one thing to forgive him, but for justice to be carried out he also has to pay the money back. Without restoration you are not made whole. Perfect justice means it is as if the wrong never happened. > Biblical passages about being judged for deeds are never about achieving salvation through deeds. You’ll have to explain the difference between being judged according to our deeds and salvation. How is it that we re judged according to works and deeds and yet none are required? Again, when you speak of justice you’re assuming through blind faith some debt exists. How does logic and reason dictate such a debt? > [@](#): > > Yes - it is all paid up. But your thinking here is that Christians will ‘want’ to keep doing bad things after they have realized what Jesus has done for them. Jesus said he is doing away with ‘the law.’ This means we are free from rules. However, once you have truly seen perfect love and experienced forgiveness you act out of gratefulness. The reality is that Christians do continue to sin so on some level they do want to do bad things, otherwise they simply wouldn’t. And so the logical paradox is, how much sin does God tolerate from believers {and how does this relate to being judged according to deeds} If all is forgiven, even the sins they continue to commit, then there’s little motive to do good and grow. That also means that in Christian justice the excellent Christian gets the same reward as mediocre Christian and the excellent Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. who have plenty of great works to be judged , are damned. > [@](#): > > actually, Christians do believe that through grace, there is nothing we can do that will make God ‘take it back.’ It is not as if our salvation is conditional on us not sinning. Christians all continue to sin. oh yes, I know. That 's a big reason the theology doesn’t work. > [@](#): > > yes. > > yes > > yes. But it is not like there is a scorecard. Our salvation does not hinge upon our morality. When someone does something wonderful for you, out of love, don’t you react with gratefulness? Aren’t you humbled when someone does something for you that you don’t deserve? Maybe the idea that we are so undeserving is part of the problem. > [@](#): > > To quote Keller on the dynamic of grace and gratitude: > “Think of what happens when you fall in love. Your love makes you eager for acceptance from the beloved. You ask, “will you marry me?” What happens when the answer is ‘yes?’ Do you say, ‘great! I’m in! Now I can act any way I want’? Of course not. Now you don’t even wait for the object of your affection to directly ask you to do something for them. You anticipate whatever pleases and delights them. There’s no coercion or sense of obligation, yet your behavior has been radically changed by the mind and heart of the person you love.” > (This is quoted from the book _The Reason for God_) It’s a nice sentiment touching on the truth but oversimplified. We know that even in love people don’t do everything to please each other because they still have their own desires, wants and needs. The feeling of love, the desire to ,does not translate into acts of love without effort and continued work. > [@](#): > > There is no line. God accepted ALL sin on the cross. There is no limit. Then we’re back top the same paradox. > [@](#): > > no, because our works will never be enough. We can never live up to the standard of perfection. It’s like telling a 5 year old he has to pay for the ming vase he just broke. He can’t. once more, you’re assuming a huge debt. > [@](#): > > I disagree, I think Christianity holds up to logic and reason as well or better than any other worldview. I say this as someone who has read Dawkins, Freud, Nietzsche, the findings of the Jesus Seminar, etc. I do think Christians often do a terrible job of it, though. It can be tough to find well reasoned minds who do a good job of explaining Christian doctrine, but they exist. (Alvin Plantinga, C.S. Lewis,Timothy Keller, Francis Collins are a few.) Then we strongly disagree. As I’ve explained, and shown, since Christianity is founded on more than a few key components that must be, can only be accepted through blind faith, then over all it’s theology cannot really be based in logic and reason. It seems Christianity claims that if we accept A,B, C,D, E, as fact through blind faith, then F, G, H, I, follow logically. That’s not something I see as logic. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/115 "2010-04-12T02:40:15Z")
> [@Velma](#): > > If by ‘okay’ you mean, is their salvation still intact, then yes. If by ‘okay’ you mean God condones it, then no. There is a distinction that needs to be made between saying “this action makes God happy and glorifies Him” and “this action means my salvation is in jeopardy.” Jesus’ death paid for all your (and my) sin, past and future. Our salvation is not based on deeds. At all. and there’s the paradox that doesn’t indicate justice at all. Christians can continue to sin and are still saved, so in that sense it does appear God is condoning it even though you don’t like the word. Since the Bible clearly indicates works are important we need to examine justice in Christian theology and wonder why a morally questionable Christian with few works to show receives salvation , while morally righteous people of other religions or no religion are condemned. How that fit with justice? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/116 "2010-04-12T12:41:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Bold mine, I never claim that you can contradict the ‘Bible’, but can certainly contradict a interpretation of the Bible, you can not contradict the Word of God. You cannnot prove the Bible is the word of God; When you believe this, you are taking the word of a human who claimed it was God’s word, just as Muslims claim the Koran is God’s word. It can be proven that Humans wrote the Bible, claimed it was God’s word and was inspired by God. So one can’t blame God for what one believes. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/117 "2010-04-12T13:02:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The greatest blessing is being fruitful, to reap a bountiful harvest of what you have sown. It is a request for God to multiply your harvest, may you reap in much good. > > God wants a relationship with His children. Yes He knows, but wants us to talk to Him. God loves it when one of His children come to talk with Him. He is the King of the universe, and we as His little child can come, sit on His lap and talk to Him at any time and He will make time for us anytime we want. If Your God knows all things and can read thoughts he sure doesn’t need conversation; the child however does need it, and cannot depend on just a guess that this being you call God wants says or does since he keeps himself hidden. I guess his lap is really crowded! Too bad no one can really hear, or feel him except in imagination! A supreme being would have no needs, or it is not supreme or any different than a human. I will say one thing for you, you sure have a good imaginary friend, like a little girl I used to baby sit for years ago. On one hand you speak of demon gods and on another you have it differntly, I see it as one big confusion on your part that you make up as you go along. As i stated before, you seem to be helped by your beliefs and even if it makes no sense to others it is you personal crutch, so no harm done, and I doubt that many find it reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/118 "2010-04-12T16:59:43Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > God is supposed to know all things before they happen, so he must have known that the humans he created would be flawed, so he is responsible for the flaw, just as a auto maker or maker of any product is at fault for a flawed article. He keeps His relationship with His children on a just Faith basis(keeps Himself hidden from them) and if a human father did this He would not be considered a good father, nor would a human father who expected his children just to believe in him even if he kept himself from them. We only know of, or heard about such a being from another human, and humans like to make up stories to keep people in line. > > Being created is one thing, being used as a pawn in a big game is another: Do what you will,but if if is not my choice I will make you suffer for all eternity is not a loving action. If a father tells his child through some people who like to lie or make up things,your father wants you to suffer so people will know what suffering is, then no, that is not an act of a loving father but an abusive one. I have a 5 year old son who I know very well. I set up rules for him even when I know he will not be able to keep them. For example, he is disciplined when he lies. Yet I knew before having him that he would not be able to go his whole life without telling a lie, sometimes I can even tell in a given situation that he is going to lie about something before he does it. Should I not set up this rule that he cannot obey? Should he not be disciplined when he disobeys? Is it my fault that he lies? I think if we were created so that we could not disobey, then we would be the pawns. Autos do not have free will, people do. If God created us in a programmed manner, then we could blame Him. But we have choice. > [@](#): > > The Bible is the work,word, of humans just as the Koran, so I do not put any stock in the Bible even though there are some good ideas in it, there is no sign of a loving father as far as I can see. If a human father acted like Him we would put him in jail. > This God you believe in creates a son who has a human mother, then lets Him suffer for a few hours,dies for a few hours and then returns to someplace in the sky, seems like an act of some one who didn’t know what he was doing to begin with. Of course I do not believe in the Genesis account, it seems to be too foolish for a Supreme being to do. Sounds to me like some wild story someone came up with when not much education was the norm. No, the God I believe in did not create a son. The Son is God. (Begotten, not made.) When you say the Genesis account, I assume you are talking about Adam and the story of the fall. I don’t believe in it literally either, (as in, was there a single man and woman and a fruit tree) but as allegory about how man has free will. I understand what you are saying in regards to the OT God seeming cruel. Keep in mind that Christians believe all the Bible points to Christ, and God is revealed through Him. I don’t have the ability or time to do a whole OT God/vs. NT God analysis, but Christians believe the Bible is fulfilled through Jesus, so we use his teachings over the OT rules and believe the OT rules no longer apply. There are tons of different topics in this thread and books have literally been written about many of the points made here, so I know I cannot do any of them true justice or be very convincing in this forum. In case anyone is really interested in finding out more about how Christian theology answers these questions, you can find fairly brief summaries to listen to here (the topics of Justification and Sin may be particularly interesting): [http://www.redeemer.com/learn/resources/keller\_qa.html](http://www.redeemer.com/learn/resources/keller_qa.html) ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/119 "2010-04-12T17:11:09Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > and there’s the paradox that doesn’t indicate justice at all. Christians can continue to sin and are still saved, so in that sense it does appear God is condoning it even though you don’t like the word. > > Since the Bible clearly indicates works are important we need to examine justice in Christian theology and wonder why a morally questionable Christian with few works to show receives salvation , while morally righteous people of other religions or no religion are condemned. How that fit with justice? Morality is not enough. Jesus showed in the parable of the prodigal son that both ‘sinners’ (as we think of them, people who do morally bad things) and also people who we think of as morally decent people both need salvation. The prodigal son is the sinner who returns back to his father, who welcomes him. The older son is the moral one, who did all the ‘right’ things. Yet he also turned away from his father because he was upset that the prodigal son was allowed back: " The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’ 31" ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ " Should moral people complain when ‘sinners’ receive salvation? Salvation is there for the moral people too (and they need is just as much.) Works are important because they are a sign of our love for God, not because they win us points with God or do anything to earn our way. Christians separate morality/deeds from salvation entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038/120 "2010-04-12T17:43:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by that bit in parentheses. But concerning Christianity, there are several key components of that theology that must be accepted on faith, even if we accept the existence of a higher power. > > That we have some debt to pay for salvation is such a belief. > That Jesus was God who paid that debt by becoming mortal and being crucified. > That belief in Jesus as saviour is the only way to salvation. > That the Bible is the word of God and the only word of God, and it was part of God’s plan that it serve that purpose. {No support for that in scripture or otherwise} > If so many key components are accepted through blind faith then it’s hard to make a case that Christianity is built on logic and reason. > > You’ll have to explain the difference between being judged according to our deeds and salvation. How is it that we re judged according to works and deeds and yet none are required? you can tell when someone is just saying they love someone and really doesn’t. Their actions don’t show it. We have all seen relationships where one person claims to love another but we know if they really did, they would be acting differently. This is true of us also, when we experience God’s love our actions show it. (By their fruits you shall know them). That does not mean that salvation was dependent on actions. > [@](#): > > Again, when you speak of justice you’re assuming through blind faith some debt exists. How does logic and reason dictate such a debt? Why are we in debt to God? Is it not reasonable to believe that we as humans do not live up to a Deity’s standards? I don’t see how it is _illogical_ to think that people fail to live up to perfection. > [@](#): > > The reality is that Christians do continue to sin so on some level they do want to do bad things, otherwise they simply wouldn’t. Do you never do something you don’t want to do? Eat the last cookie, blurt out something mean? Christian theology says that we are completely fallen, it is not a matter of willpower. Even Paul says he does things he does not want to do. > [@](#): > > And so the logical paradox is, how much sin does God tolerate from believers {and how does this relate to being judged according to deeds} If all is forgiven, even the sins they continue to commit, then there’s little motive to do good and grow. Is the only incentive we have to be good fear of punishment? I hope not. That’s not very good parenting if I teach my child to behave out of fear. Better that he learn to obey out of trust and love and a desire to be better. > [@](#): > > That also means that in Christian justice the excellent Christian gets the same reward as mediocre Christian and the excellent Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. who have plenty of great works to be judged , are damned. That does mean that the excellent Christian get the same reward, yes. And yes, good works cannot save the Atheist or Muslim, etc. just as they don’t save anyone. All people are on the same level and Jesus died for everyone. > [@](#): > > oh yes, I know. That 's a big reason the theology doesn’t work. > Maybe the idea that we are so undeserving is part of the problem. > > It’s a nice sentiment touching on the truth but oversimplified. We know that even in love people don’t do everything to please each other because they still have their own desires, wants and needs. The feeling of love, the desire to ,does not translate into acts of love without effort and continued work. > > Then we’re back top the same paradox. > > once more, you’re assuming a huge debt. I do assume a huge debt. I don’t see why that is _illogical_. It would be illogical for me to say: There is a debt. There is not a debt. I also think you use the term ‘blind faith’ to mean ‘anything that does not match my own perceptions.’ > [@](#): > > Then we strongly disagree. As I’ve explained, and shown, since Christianity is founded on more than a few key components that must be, can only be accepted > through blind faith, then over all it’s theology cannot really be based in logic and reason. It seems Christianity claims that if we accept A,B, C,D, E, as fact through blind faith, then F, G, H, I, follow logically. That’s not something I see as logic. I think Christians have underlying assumptions about how the universe is set up, but I don’t think they are any more based on faith than any other worldview. There is no Biblical command to throw out your brain and trust in crazy illogical claims. Thomas was allowed to touch the wounds for himself. I know this is opening up a whole new can of worms that cannot all be addressed here. I don’t hope to convince anyone of anything except to hopefully see that Christian theology does address these issues, we don’t (all) just believe things because someone told us to. I am not a theologian or an apologist, but I have examined my beliefs carefully and have not come to my beliefs through ‘blind faith.’ (meaning that I have no reasons for doing so other than I just like it.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-resurrection-theologically-necessary/535038.md?page=7)