# Was Jesus the son of a roman soldier
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 6, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521 "2013-10-06T18:57:42Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/1 "2013-10-06T18:57:42Z")
> **[Jesus in the Talmud | Mother and father](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#Mother_and_father)**
>
> Some Talmudic sources include passages which identify a "son of Pandera" (ben Pandera in Hebrew), and some scholars conclude that these are references to the messiah of Christianity. Medieval Hebrew midrashic literature contain the "Episode of Jesus" (known also as Maaseh Yeshu), in which Jesus is described as being the son of Joseph, the son of Pandera (see: Episode of Jesus). The account portrays Jesus as an impostor.
> The Talmud, and other talmudic texts, contain several references to the "so...
I’m sure there are some religious experts here, how valid is the concept that Jesus was the son of a roman soldier? If so I wonder what role that would have had in his anti-Roman, pro-Jewish attitudes.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/2 "2013-10-06T19:10:30Z")
I thought that was Brian.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/3 "2013-10-06T19:26:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> I thought that was Brian.
Yeah, son of Naughtius Maximus.
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### Author:  [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/4 "2013-10-06T20:50:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> I thought that was Brian.
Shut up big nose.
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/5 "2013-10-06T21:04:54Z")
I was shocked when I first read that there was a tradition of Jesus being the son of a Roman Soldier named pantera. It was in a footnote in T.H. White’s excellent _The Bestiary: A Book of Beasts_, which is a translation of a medieval bestiary, complete with all the religious asides. Maddeningly, in the section on the Panther, White flung out this tidbit of informaion without his usual followup, so it sat there as a bare, uncited and unsupported asserttion. It was years before I found a lengthy explanation of it in Morton Smith’s 1978 book **Jesus the Magcian**
> **[Jesus the Magician](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Magician)**
>
> Jesus the Magician is a 1978 book by Morton Smith arguing that the historical Jesus was a magician who "sprang from a Galilean strain of Semitic paganism" (p. 68).
> The idea that Jesus was a magician did not originate with Morton Smith. It was previously voiced by the philosopher and critic Celsus (The True Word c. 200 CE) as we know from the rebuttal authored by the Christian apologist/scholar Origen: “It was by magic that he was able to do the miracles” (Contra Celsum 1.6). Hans Dieter Betz (19...
Regardless of Smith’s own beliefs, the book is a useful compendium of scurrilous rumors about Jesus in the first few centuries of the Christian Era. Smith observes that there is a Roman grave marker in Germany to one Pantera and “if real might be our only relic of the Holy Family”.
I doubt if Smith actually believed that – he was being provocative. It’s possible that the idea arose from sayings that Jesus was the son of a _parthenos_ (virgin), interpreted and re-imagined by a hostile audience that shaped it into the son of _pantera_.
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/6 "2013-10-06T21:10:28Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#):
>
> I was shocked when I first read that there was a tradition of Jesus being the son of a Roman Soldier named pantera. It was in a footnote in T.H. White’s excellent _The Bestiary: A Book of Beasts_, which is a translation of a medieval bestiary, complete with all the religious asides. Maddeningly, in the section on the Panther, White flung out this tidbit of informaion without his usual followup, so it sat there as a bare, uncited and unsupported asserttion. It was years before I found a lengthy explanation of it in Morton Smith’s 1978 book **Jesus the Magcian**
>
> [Jesus the Magician - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Magician)
>
> Regardless of Smith’s own beliefs, the book is a useful compendium of scurrilous rumors about Jesus in the first few centuries of the Christian Era. Smith observes that there is a Roman grave marker in Germany to one Pantera and “if real might be our only relic of the Holy Family”.
>
> I doubt if Smith actually believed that – he was being provocative. It’s possible that the idea arose from sayings that Jesus was the son of a _parthenos_ (virgin), interpreted and re-imagined by a hostile audience that shaped it into the son of _pantera_.
The first serious reply, thank you for that. I haven’t heard of that book but it sounds interesting. I’m asking the library to get a copy for me.
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### Author:  [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/7 "2013-10-06T21:15:28Z")
Interesting, I’d never heard of this. So, was this actually what the Pythons were going for, or is the analogous lineage of Brian just a coincidence?
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/8 "2013-10-06T21:22:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> [Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud#Mother_and_father)
>
> I’m sure there are some religious experts here, how valid is the concept that Jesus was the son of a roman soldier? If so I wonder what role that would have had in his anti-Roman, pro-Jewish attitudes.
There is no historical evidence supporting the notion that Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier. I’ve seen the argument advanced, once, that the story of the Virgin birth must have been concocted to cover up the embarrassing truth, and it would have been quite embarrassing if Mary had been impregnated by a Roman. Tenuous reasoning, to put it mildly.
As for Jesus’s “anti-Roman, pro-Jewish attitudes”, no explanation seems necessary. He was born and raised in a Jewish village culture and viewed himself as fulfilling Jewish religious and cultural expectations. He was not more anti-Roman than the culture, but less. Different Jewish groups at the time were all antagonistic to Roman rule. One group, the “Zealots”, pushed for open revolt, but more mainstream groups accepted Roman rule and instead focused on remaining pure from the surrounding pagan culture. Jesus, on the other hand, regularly invited crossing of the border between Jews and pagans. He ignored purification laws and rituals that Jews generally observed with regards to non-Jewish people.
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### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/9 "2013-10-06T21:33:21Z")
The Greek philosopher Celsus made the same claim at around the same time. So it seems to have been a fairly common rumour in the Ancient world during the late second century. But Celsus was writing a polemic against Christianity, so it seems at least as likely that it was basically a way of ridiculing the virgin birth story as anything else.
And Joseph is really the only name the two genealogies for Jesus agree on, so it seems likely the boring truth is that that was his actual father’s name.
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### Author:  [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/10 "2013-10-06T21:37:39Z")
The Greek philosopher Celsus made the same claim at around the same time. So it seems to have been a fairly common rumour in the Ancient world during the late second century. But Celsus was writing a polemic against Christianity, so it seems at least as likely that it was basically a way of ridiculing the virgin birth story as anything else.
And Joseph is really the only name the two genealogies for Jesus agree on, so it seems likely the boring truth is that that was his actual father’s name.
(That said, Joseph is suspiciously absent in Paul and Mark and in the general biblical narrative. So its not impossible he was a made up character to give Jesus a connection to the House of David. But I think its more likely he just died early on, and so while the early Christians actually knew Mary, they didn’t have any connection to Joseph (other then James the Just, of course)).
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/11 "2013-10-06T21:57:49Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> Yeah, son of Naughtius Maximus.
You seem vewy certain about that, Centuwion. :dubious:
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/12 "2013-10-06T22:05:23Z")
FWIW and this goes into witnessing, Nephilim (hybrid) children, such as Jesus, need a biological father, though their real father is in the heavens. These hybrid children are all born sinless. The surrogate father could be anyone and that is really irrelevant to who this child is except to the point that the child must realize this and overcome this. So it is possible that Jesus’ bio-dad was a roman soldier but really doesn’t matter, Mary only saw and interacted with a ArchAngel (or God) that she saw through this man.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/13 "2013-10-06T22:11:30Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#):
>
> It’s possible that the idea arose from sayings that Jesus was the son of a _parthenos_ (virgin), interpreted and re-imagined by a hostile audience that shaped it into the son of _pantera_.
Well, I don’t suppose she would have been the first girl to have her cherry popped by Dimebag Darrell.
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/14 "2013-10-06T22:19:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> FWIW and this goes into witnessing, Nephilim (hybrid) children, such as Jesus, need a biological father, though their real father is in the heavens. These hybrid children are all born sinless. The surrogate father could be anyone and that is really irrelevant to who this child is except to the point that the child must realize this and overcome this. So it is possible that Jesus’ bio-dad was a roman soldier but really doesn’t matter, Mary only saw and interacted with a ArchAngel (or God) that she saw through this man.
That is blatant heresy since 1) it denies the Virgin Birth and 2) makes Jesus the equivalent of Nephillim rather then the One and Only Begotten Son of God.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/15 "2013-10-06T23:41:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> That is blatant heresy since 1) it denies the Virgin Birth and 2) makes Jesus the equivalent of Nephillim rather then the One and Only Begotten Son of God.
"God is One’ and God only has one child, that single child is all of us.
Does it deny the virgin birth, are you the one who accuses Mary of adultery when God Himself has found no fault in her?
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/16 "2013-10-07T02:01:34Z")
\
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> "God is One’
What are you implying here? Do you mean to deny the Trinity?
> [@](#):
>
> and God only has one child, that single child is all of us.
Nonsense. We (or at least the Elect) are the children of God in one sense of the word in that we all share in the inheritance of Christ but God had only one Son.
> [@](#):
>
> Does it deny the virgin birth, are you the one who accuses Mary of adultery when God Himself has found no fault in her?
What do you mean? Are you suggesting that it would been adultery for Mary to have impregnated and given birth as a virgin?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/17 "2013-10-07T02:01:40Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> That is blatant heresy since 1) it denies the Virgin Birth and 2) makes Jesus the equivalent of Nephillim rather then the One and Only Begotten Son of God.
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> "God is One’ and God only has one child, that single child is all of us.
>
> Does it deny the virgin birth, are you the one who accuses Mary of adultery when God Himself has found no fault in her?
Actually, rather than a heresy, I see it as a hijack. It has nothing to do with the question in the OP and if either of you, (or anyone else), wants to pursue this line of discussion, you will open up a separate thread to do it.
[/Moderating]
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### Author:  [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/18 "2013-10-07T02:04:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> There is no historical evidence supporting the notion that Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier.
No convincing evidence. But a legitimate scholar, James Tabor of the University of North Carolina, argues for it in the book _The Jesus Dynasty_. And the book is at least legit enough to get positive blurbs from other legitimate bible-era scholars:
[http://jamestabor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/EndorsementsJesusDynasty.pdf](http://jamestabor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/EndorsementsJesusDynasty.pdf)
I read the book, and the claim is made in a tentative manner.
If Tabor does have the right father, it is extremely frustrating that there’s an image of his body, but the head is missing:
[ ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/R%C3%B6merhalle%2C_Bad_Kreuznach_-_Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera_tombstone.JPG/399px-R%C3%B6merhalle%2C_Bad_Kreuznach_-_Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera_tombstone.JPG)
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> That is blatant heresy . . .
If so, every religion except Christianity, as well as atheism, is a heresy.
Secular study of religion has to look for non-miraculous explanations.
It might be heresy if Prof. Tabor claims to be a Christian. But I dont’ recall he does. And he certainly does not claim to be a theologian.
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/19 "2013-10-07T02:56:30Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#):
>
> If so, every religion except Christianity, as well as atheism, is a heresy.
>
> Secular study of religion has to look for non-miraculous explanations.
>
> It might be heresy if Prof. Tabor claims to be a Christian. But I dont’ recall he does. And he certainly does not claim to be a theologian.
I was only referring to **kanicbird** ’s ideas as heresy since 1) he is a professing Christian and 2) his ideas were explicitly theological.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jesus-the-son-of-a-roman-soldier/670521/20 "2013-10-07T07:29:05Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#):
>
> I was only referring to **kanicbird** ’s ideas as heresy since 1) he is a professing Christian and 2) his ideas were explicitly theological.
Qin, this isn’t your first exposure to kanicbird’s rather exotic version of Christian faith, is it?
Answer to the OP, I don’t think so, but it certainly is an ancient tradition, possibly 3rd generation since Jesus.
> **[Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera)**
>
> Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera (/pænˈtɛrə/; c. 22 BC – AD 40) was a Roman-Phoenician soldier born in Sidon, whose tombstone was found by railworkers in Bingerbrück, Germany, in 1859.
> In October 1859, during the construction of a railroad in Bingerbrück in Germany, tombstones for nine Roman soldiers were accidentally discovered by railworkers. One of the tombstones was that of Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera and is currently kept in the Römerhalle museum in Bad Kreuznach, Germany.
> The inscription (...
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