# Was JFK a donut? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 9, 2001, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618 "2001-08-09T16:43:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/21 "2001-08-11T04:12:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > Interestingly, this particular story about Kennedy seems to have originated with a journalist who had just this in mind. Snopes used to have a page on this (it seems to be gone now), and it said that the fuss over “Ich bin ein Berliner” did not begin until the 1980s and was first brought up by those attempting to make Quayle look better by making Kennedy look worse. I doubt that since I heard about the “Berliner Gaffe” in german class well before Quayle made it out of Indiana. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/22 "2001-08-11T04:41:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > \*\*Good thing he wasn’t in Hamburg. \*\* Thanks for the laugh, Guano! (“Ich bin ein Hamburger!”) What everyone seems to miss is that “beat” of silence inbetween “Berliner” and the applause, when the Germans “got” and “forgave” the faux’pa! That is what makes it a classic gaffe. Otherwise, I gotta tell y’all something: Ready? Okay: the pastries in Europe taste differently than those in the USA because of the different types of grain used to make the flour. I have tried to get “Brötchen” (breakfast rolls) here in the US, and they just don’t taste the same. Somehow lighter, and something we cannot recreate here in the USA. Or perhaps (hopefully) I am wrong??? Thanks Quasi ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/23 "2001-08-11T04:50:13Z")
There shouldn’t be any question in any one’s mind that the West Germans knew what JFK was trying to say and that he was widely respected and appreciated for reaffirming US backing for a free Berlin and a free Germany. There was wide spread speculation that with all its other problems (civil rights in the US, a growing war in S.E. Asia, Cuba) the US would back off on its commitment to the defense of Western Europe in general and West Berlin in particular. The “Every free man is a Berliner” speech reassured Germany of the US’s continued commitment. The Germans didn’t care about the grammar. They welcomed the substance of the speech. Thirty years ago every West German town of any size had a little monument or square or street name after President Kennedy. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/24 "2001-08-11T05:35:59Z")
While Berliners are quite delicious (both Petra and the jelly variety), had he said “Ich bin ein Amerikaner”, he still would have been a pastry. He just would have been covered in icing instead of jelly. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/25 "2001-08-11T05:43:33Z")
In addition to the fact that it wasn’t actually an error, but only appears to be an error if you don’t dig deep enough into the mysteries of German grammar… And the fact that Kennedy wasn’t calling _himself_ a “Berliner”, whether person or pastry, in any case… And the obvious fact that people understood, and appreciated, what he was trying to say… There’s also the fact that Kennedy didn’t speak any German. He was reading it phonetically, and if you hear a tape of the speech that becomes obvious. He is clearly wrestling with a completely unfamiliar tongue. Someone on his staff wrote that sentence for him. All in all, it’s not a terribly amusing little story when all the facts are in. I have actually heard assertions that “the audience burst into laughter” after Kennedy’s statement. They didn’t. They cheered and applauded, because it was the end of the speech. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/26 "2001-08-11T14:19:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Interestingly, this particular story about Kennedy seems to have originated with a journalist who had just this in mind. Snopes used to have a page on this (it seems to be gone now), and it said that the fuss over “Ich bin ein Berliner” did not begin until the 1980s and was first brought up by those attempting to make Quayle look better by making Kennedy look worse. I’m pretty sure I first came across the “Kennedy gaffe” versionin “Berlin Game” by Len Deighton, which I read in the early 80s, when no-one outside of Indiana had even heard of Dan Quayle. Can anyone cofnirm/refute this, or is it just my memory acting up again? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/27 "2001-08-11T15:41:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Northern Piper \* > \*\* > I’m pretty sure I first came across the “Kennedy gaffe” versionin “Berlin Game” by Len Deighton, which I read in the early 80s, when no-one outside of Indiana had even heard of Dan Quayle. Can anyone cofnirm/refute this, or is it just my memory acting up again? \*\* It is possible that my memory of the now-missing Snopes page is wrong. But I am fairly certain that there was a lapse of many years between Kennedy’s speech and anyone claiming that he’d made a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/28 "2001-08-11T16:45:37Z")
I can vouch that, in my favorite right-wing magazines, columnists were ridiculing JFK for his supposed grammar error LONG before Dan Quayle was elected. Now, I repeat: the “error” was extremely minor, EVERYBODY present knew what he meant, and only a pedantic twit (or a fanatical Kennedy hater) would choose to make a big deal of it. However, I brought up the Dan Quayle issue because Kennedy and Quayle had much in common. Both were good-looking rich kids, and both were political lightweights who commanded little respect in the Senate. Moreover, both had a tendency to say silly things in public. The difference is, for some unknown reason, Kennedy was perceived as an intellectual (it’s now known that he never read anything more profound than James Bond novels). So, when Kennedy made a minor gaffe, it was ignored. Poor Quayle, on the other hand, was held up to national ridicule for every minor gaffe. Was this due to “left-wing bias” in the media? Partially… but it had a LOT more to do with the way the media have changed since 1963. If JFK were President today, he’d be fodder for late-night comedy monologues, too! ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/29 "2001-08-11T16:52:22Z")
The jelly doughnut story was popular long before Dan Quayle. My high school German teacher taught it to me back in 1979 or thereabouts. She was a native speaker, and thought the jelly doughnut translation was reasonable (though, of course, everyone knew what he meant.) Snopes is a wee tad overzealous in claiming that any random piece of folklore _must_ be false, especially for a page that pays lip service to the notion that urban legends are interesting for the ideas they contain, not their factual veracity. I guess it comes from hearing “No, really, it happened to a friend of mine!” one too many times. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2001, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618/30 "2001-08-11T22:42:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GuanoLad \* > Good thing he wasn’t in Hamburg. Or Frankfurt or even Rottweil… But consider, for about 10 years after WWII, Wien (Vienna) and Austria split into four sectors just like Germany and Berlin. Suppose they still were when Kennedy gave his speech and he gave it in Wien… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-jfk-a-donut/75618.md?page=1)