# Was justice fully served in the Abu Ghraib torture convictions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395 "2009-01-15T05:56:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/1 "2009-01-15T05:56:30Z")
In looking at the [wiki of the Abu Ghraib](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse) torture and prisoner abuse convictions it doesn’t appear that they really reached very high up. Was justice fully served in those convictions, or did some higher ups escape justice that should have been held responsible? > [@](#): > > As revealed by the 2004 Taguba Report, a criminal investigation by the US Army Criminal Investigation Command had already been underway since 2003 where multiple recruits from the 320th Military Police Battalion had been charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice with prisoner abuse. In 2004 articles of the abuse, including pictures showing military personnel abusing prisoners, came to public attention, when a 60 Minutes II news report (April 28) and an article by Seymour M. Hersh in The New Yorker magazine (posted online on April 30 and published days later in the May 10 issue) reported the story.[4] Janis Karpinski, the commander of Abu Ghraib, demoted for her lack of oversight regarding the abuse, estimated later that 90% of detainees in the prison were innocent.[5] > > Lynndie England and Charles Graner posing with prisoners ordered to form a human pyramidThe U.S. Department of Defense removed seventeen soldiers and officers from duty, and seven soldiers were charged with dereliction of duty, maltreatment, aggravated assault and battery. Between May 2004 and September 2005, seven soldiers were convicted in courts martial, sentenced to federal prison time, and dishonorably discharged from service. Two soldiers, Specialist Charles Graner, and his former fiancée, Specialist Lynndie England, were sentenced to ten years and three years in prison, respectively, in trials ending on January 14, 2005 and September 26, 2005. The commanding officer at the prison, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, was demoted to the rank of Colonel on May 5, 2005. Col. Karpinski has denied knowledge of the abuses claiming that the interrogations were authorized by her superiors and performed by subcontractors, and that she was not even allowed entry into the interrogation rooms. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/2 "2009-01-15T06:51:58Z")
No, justice was not served. Yes, many escaped justice; including, at least, the vice-president. Will justice ever be served? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/3 "2009-01-15T18:47:38Z")
If you get a chance check out the documentary “Standard Operating Procedure” > [@](#): > > Is it possible for a photograph to change the world? Photographs taken by soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison changed the war in Iraq and changed Americas image of itself. Yet, a central mystery remains. Did the notorious Abu Ghraib photographs constitute evidence of systematic abuse by the American military, or were they documenting the aberrant behavior of a few bad apples? We set out to examine the context of these photographs. Why were they taken? What was happening outside the frame? We talked directly to the soldiers who took the photographs and who were in the photographs. Who are these people? What were they thinking? Over two years of investigation, we amassed a million and a half words of interview transcript, thousands of pages of unredacted reports, and hundreds of photographs. The story of Abu Ghraib is still shrouded in moral ambiguity, but it is clear what happened there. The Abu Ghraib photographs serve as both an expose and a coverup. An expose, because the photographs offer us a glimpse of the horror of Abu Ghraib; and a coverup because they convinced journalists and readers they had seen everything, that there was no need to look further. In recent news reports, we have learned about the destruction of the Abu Zubaydah interrogation tapes. A coverup. It has been front page news. But the coverup at Abu Ghraib involved thousands of prisoners and hundreds of soldiers. We are still learning about the extent of it. Many journalists have asked about the smoking gun of Abu Ghraib. It is the wrong question. As Philip Gourevitch has commented, Abu Ghraib is the smoking gun. The underlying question that we still have not resolved, four years after the scandal: how could American values become so compromised that Abu Ghraiband the subsequent coverupcould happen? ---
**Author:** ![edivincison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@edivincison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edivincison)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/4 "2009-01-20T13:50:47Z")
> [@astro](#): > > (Excerpt from the quote from the wiki of Abu Ghraib): > Lynndie England and Charles Graner posing with **prisoners ordered to form a human pyramid** \*(looks like a picture’s legend)\*The U.S. Department of Defense removed seventeen soldiers and officers from duty, and seven soldiers were charged with dereliction of duty, maltreatment, **aggravated assault and battery**. These pictures of a pyramid of naked men, exposing their rear ends (hence the photographers even respecting their anonymity!), were published half a dozen times (with increasing intervals, according to an algorithm used in mnemotechnics) over a period of several weeks in the daily press. In order to make believe that this was torture, heavy prison sentences were dealt to England and Garner. **The scandal is that the press contributed to spread this inflationary definition of the notion of torture, and that public opinion swallowed the whole in a sort of hysterically silent consensus…** Do you believe that England and Garner are still in jail, or even ever got jailed? And yet if this were the case, it could only stand for covered-up charges of real torture. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/5 "2009-01-20T18:05:46Z")
When those who authorized or ordered it, are brought to trial, the answer can become Yes. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/6 "2009-01-20T19:01:49Z")
> [@edivincison](#): > > These pictures of a pyramid of naked men, exposing their rear ends (hence the photographers even respecting their anonymity!), were published half a dozen times (with increasing intervals, according to an algorithm used in mnemotechnics) over a period of several weeks in the daily press. > > In order to make believe that this was torture, heavy prison sentences were dealt to England and Garner. > > **The scandal is that the press contributed to spread this inflationary definition of the notion of torture, and that public opinion swallowed the whole in a sort of hysterically silent consensus…** > > Do you believe that England and Garner are still in jail, or even ever got jailed? > > And yet if this were the case, it could only stand for covered-up charges of real torture. People that have done the documentary linked to and quoted from above have done quite a bit of investigation on this and have come to the conclusion that what you saw was just the tip of the iceberg. What are you basing your statements on? Do you have some facts, investigative reports that you would like to share? My request is not restricted to the web. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/7 "2009-01-20T19:05:02Z")
Perhaps I misread, **EasyPhil** , but it read to me that the implication that that was torture _was_ just the tip of the iceburg. You bolded that particular sentence, but not the last one. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/8 "2009-01-20T22:18:21Z")
At the very least, [Maj Gen Geoffrey D. Miller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_D._Miller)should have been tried, but since that would probably bring us way too close to Rumsfeld and Cheney, it never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/9 "2009-01-21T00:35:26Z")
I seem to remember that there was some extra evidence in form of photos and maybe videos that wasn’t released to the media. These photos were said to be even worse than those showed by media. What happened to all these? Did they ever come out? ---
**Author:** ![edivincison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@edivincison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edivincison)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/10 "2009-01-22T00:07:25Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Perhaps I misread, **EasyPhil** , but it read to me that the implication that that was torture _was_ just the tip of the iceburg. You bolded that particular sentence, but not the last one. It’s not EasyPhil who bolded the sentence, it is bolded in my original text – and I should indeed have bolded the last sentence too, besides correcting it and making it more explicit, i.e.: \*\*And yet if England and Garner got jailed and still were in jail, the sentences could only stand for covered-up charges of real torture. \*\* This should answer EasyPhil’s questions, yet he might not even have asked them if I had done my last sentence right on first hit. As to the evidence he claims from me, this claim becomes void too as it misses the point. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/11 "2009-01-22T00:30:10Z")
[A case not part of the Graner/England trial](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abed_Hamed_Mowhoush) Crime: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] … the autopsy report indicated that the cause of death was “asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression”, and that his body showed “evidence of blunt force trauma to the chest and legs” … [/quote] Punishment: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] A military jury ordered a reprimand and forfeiture of $6000 in pay, and restricted him to his home, office and church for two months. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/12 "2009-01-22T00:44:44Z")
[Another case](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manadel_al-Jamadi) Crime: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] … was tortured to death in United States custody during interrogation at Abu Ghraib prison in November 2003 … died after a fruitless half-hour interrogation, during which he was suspended from a barred window by his wrists, which were bound behind his back. … His status was that of a ghost prisoner, whose imprisonment and death would not normally have been included in official prison records. … [/quote] Punishment [QUOTE=Wikipedia] … acquitted … administrative punishment … letter of reprimand … faced no charges … was granted immunity [for testimony against another officer whose conviction was later annulled] [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/13 "2009-01-22T03:11:36Z")
I saw online the other week an engraving of a man hung by his wrists behind his back. It dated to something like the middle ages. It disturbed me pretty bad, and now I learn that this is being done by Americans now… I do hate it how in the news everyone runs around screaming “torture” “torture” and then references things like pretend drowning and loud music. It makes a lot of people go “wtf, those liberals must be some pussies.” But in fact real torture went on. In guantanamo and abu ghraib, but especially at secret cia prisons. The news doesn’t talk about it, because there isn’t so much “objective” evidence for it. But it keeps talking about the well-documented torture-lite as a placeholder. And I can’t figure out if it’s better than not putting emphasis on torture at all, or if it’s hurting things that they keep claiming that torture-lite is abhorrant, or if the should fucking grow some balls and talk about the real things that went on. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/14 "2009-01-22T03:13:28Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > If you get a chance check out the documentary “Standard Operating Procedure” _Taxi to the Dark Side_ is much, much better: more comprehensive and deeper dug. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/15 "2009-01-22T03:35:40Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > I do hate it how in the news everyone runs around screaming “torture” “torture” and then references things like pretend drowning and loud music. But it keeps talking about the well-documented torture-lite That’s the kind of “torture-lite” that was used by the pussies of (respectively) the Gestapo and the KGB. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/16 "2009-01-22T03:49:45Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > That’s the kind of “torture-lite” that was used by the pussies of (respectively) the Gestapo and the KGB. Well of course by the law of the bell curve they used torture-lite more than real torture. You know, the most frequent thing that the Gestapo and KGB did to the detained is yell really loud. So mall cops are like the Gestapo. ---
**Author:** ![Rolken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Rolken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rolken)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/17 "2009-01-22T03:51:47Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > I do hate it how in the news everyone runs around screaming “torture” “torture” and then references things like pretend drowning and loud music. It makes a lot of people go “wtf, those liberals must be some pussies.” Huh. I had no idea that the entire civilized world prior to the Bush administration, the majority of Republican 2008 presidential candidates, and pretty much everyone who’s actually experienced waterboarding were liberals. I guess life is a [learning experience](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717). Obama’s been appointing quite a few vocal anti-Bush-torture folks, so I’m hopeful that something will come of it all - but I doubt that Obama would be remotely interested in prosecuting the major players, which is both a shame and a bow to political reality. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/18 "2009-01-22T03:57:38Z")
Look, I know waterboarding is bad, but you can’t go around losing perspective. How about I give you the choice of waterboarding and pulling out your fingernail? Don’t get me wrong, I am NOT a Bush apologist. As a matter of principel, I get pissed when people go around calling everything “rape” or “assault” or etc. When people lose persepctive, when they distort the language to enforce their point, it distorts their argument. Equating waterboarding with other forms of torture gets some of your audience to question what you are saying. (As much as bringing up enthusiasm in the rest.) This has happened. A good chunk of the nation is fed up with all arguments regarding “torture” for this very reason, and now is disinclined to listen to allegations of the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Rolken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Rolken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rolken)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/19 "2009-01-22T04:30:46Z")
Waterboarding became a big deal because it was something the Bush administration owned. They were putting out contortionate legal opinions and extolling its effectiveness, and Bush and Cheney promoted it in the media. They haven’t done that with anything more severe (in public); like you said, the evidence for worse offenses is lacking. Obviously there’re worse forms of torture than waterboarding, but it’s still bad enough that it used to be invariably roundly condemned and severely punished, with only the worst of regimes engaging in its practice. The almost universal judgment of non-administration lawyers is that it is illegal by American law, it certainly was prosecuted as such before Bush, and it definitely violates international law to which we are signatories. Doesn’t that suffice? The fact is that there was no language distortion on this topic until Bush supporters initiated it. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395/20 "2009-01-22T05:31:32Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Look, I know waterboarding is bad, but you can’t go around losing perspective. How about I give you the choice of waterboarding and pulling out your fingernail? > > Don’t get me wrong, I am NOT a Bush apologist. As a matter of principel, I get pissed when people go around calling everything “rape” or “assault” or etc. When people lose persepctive, when they distort the language to enforce their point, it distorts their argument. Equating waterboarding with other forms of torture gets some of your audience to question what you are saying. (As much as bringing up enthusiasm in the rest.) This has happened. A good chunk of the nation is fed up with all arguments regarding “torture” for this very reason, and now is disinclined to listen to allegations of the real thing. Re waterboarding being “torture” or not this thread linked below has an interesting perspective and very detailed description of the process and physical reactions to it. FWIW almost every person (journalists etc) who has been curious enough to undergo this has agreed it’s 110% torture, no ifs ands, or buts. [Scylla’s “I waterboard myself” thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-justice-fully-served-in-the-abu-ghraib-torture-convictions/481395.md?page=2)