# Was Leonard/aka "Private Pyle" in Full Metal Jacket "special"? Or was there something else going on? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 23, 2020, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409 "2020-04-23T05:58:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/61 "2020-04-24T03:06:56Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It’s been a long while since I saw the movie but the one thing that seemed odd to me was that, after Pyle murdered Hartman and committed suicide, Joker (and presumably the others) were still sent overseas. Surely there would have been an investigation? Media firestorm? I don’t think there was a set time frame between the two parts of the movie. Joker would have had to complete Advanced Training before shipment as well. Investigation would take maybe 48 hours. As for media…I doubt it would have made better than Page 5 of the local paper. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/62 "2020-04-24T03:19:33Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It’s been a long while since I saw the movie but the one thing that seemed odd to me was that, after Pyle murdered Hartman and committed suicide, Joker (and presumably the others) were still sent overseas. Surely there would have been an investigation? Media firestorm? There’s a gap of at least a year and more plausibly two or more years between the different parts of the movie. Though the second half is pretty clearly tied to early 1968 and the Tet Offensive, the first half could start as early as 1965. The recruits sing “Happy Birthday Dear Jesus” at one point. If this was December 1965, then a few weeks or months later in early 1966, the course graduates. Cowboy and most of the others go off to infantry training while Joker gets assigned to military journalism. By the time they meet again, perhaps two years has passed and each has been promoted to sergeant. Even three years, putting the start of basic training in 1964, would not be a reach. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/63 "2020-04-24T03:49:05Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I don’t believe that draftees during that period would be sent to the Marine Corps. They were all Army. Could be mistaken but I’m pretty sure. In my Marine Corps bootcamp platoon in the late 60’s we had several draftees. Occasionally they would get out of some of the PT because they didn’t ask for this, but the rest of us did. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/64 "2020-04-24T03:59:11Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Except that after the blanket party, when Pyle straightened his shit out, Hartman was apparently pleased with him. He even said he’d consider letting Pyle serve as a rifleman in his beloved Corp. I doubt Hartman was expecting that Pyle would become useful, but he was willing to accept it if he did. Hell, Hartman even complimented Pyle when they discover he’s a good shot. “It looks like we’ve finally found something you’re good at!” ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/65 "2020-04-24T04:18:34Z")
> [@Tom\_Terrific](#): > > In my Marine Corps bootcamp platoon in the late 60’s we had several draftees. Occasionally they would get out of some of the PT because they didn’t ask for this, but the rest of us did. Mea Culpa, Tom. Looks like there were about 42k draftees in to the Marine Corps during the Vietnam War. Edit: Poor bastards. Semper Fi, brother. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/66 "2020-04-24T04:21:27Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I read somewhere in WWII of army draftees screaming in terror, “They are sending us to the marines!” I remember reading about that in a post on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![eunoia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eunoia/32/97_2.png) [@eunoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eunoia)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/67 "2020-04-24T05:41:32Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Went to pick up a copy on Amazon. A busted used paperback copy goes for $80 and can go up to $1,000. Damn. Guess we’ll never know. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > The whole novel used to be on [Gustav Hasford’s website](http://gustavhasford.blogspot.com/2013/01/about-this-site.html), but apparently it’s not there anymore. Try a library maybe? If you look at the Wikipedia page for The Short-Timers, Reference 9 links to the archived original version of the webpage at The Wayback Machine where the novel’s 3 parts are in 3 .rtf files. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/68 "2020-04-24T06:10:04Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Well they don’t make it easy. > > In boot camp, there was only 1 recruit in my platoon that actually got washed out. He basically sat down on the floor one day and refused to do anything. Got yelled at, threatened, to no avail. They had MPs come and take him away. No idea what happened to him. > > In boot camp, if you fail a phase such as the range, you get ‘dropped’ back to a training company that is in training phase behind you. We had a pair of twin brothers dropped to us because they both failed to qualify on the range. When we went, they failed again. I believe that they were intentionally failing to try to get out. With all of the instruction, it’s damn near impossible to UNQ twice in a row. Not sure what happened with them. > > In boot camp if you are injured and unable to train, you don’t get to leave unless it’s a really serious injury. Instead, you get sent to MRP, the Medical Rehabilitation Platoon, where from what I understand you go to your physical therapy and appointments and get assigned to working parties. Some guys spend, literally, months there. Once you’re fixed up, you drop to a training company at the phase you were removed from you original one. > > If your body composition or physical fitness are questionable, you are sent to PCP, Physical Conditioning Platoon. At PCP you basically PT all day long until you pass the physical fitness test, and likewise are put back at a training company. > > At SOI, we had at least 2 dudes who got out because they were ‘suicidal’. I don’t know if they were or not, but basically you CAN fake it until you make it with that one. They got out before SOI was over. I spent several days sitting in the rec room watching them. > > Once you get to the fleet it’s possible to get out for injuries if that’s the direction you’re leaning. I can think of at least 3 in my company that I think probably milked recoverable injuries to a discharge. Heck, I had an ankle injury once and the Navy doctor straight up asked me if I wanted to be discharged. > > Then there was one guy who got discharged for being suicidal. I actually believe that was the case with him. At one point he was standing in his window on the 4th floor off the barracks…sooooo. He was a troubled dude. Guy didn’t look in shape at all, but one day he got a perfect score on the run portion of the PFT, 3 miles in 18:00. I asked someone wtf, and they said he just went out and ran all night, every night. I still remember him waving from the back of a USO van on his way off base for the last time. > > And then of course, you can wash out by doing something to get dishonorably discharged, like dealing drugs. Which happened to a few guys in the 2nd platoon of my company. Several ended up in Leavenworth. Thereon, that platoon was known as “dimebag deuce”. > > ETA: also had one guy in our company get discharged because he intentionally kept gaining weight. When I was in the Army (early 00’s) they seemed to make it easier to get out if you were in boot camp, we lost two people to this. Basically if you’re within 180 days of enlistment you can talk to the base psychiatrist and tell them you don’t want to be there anymore and supposedly they would give you a week to change your mind and apparently they would also try to figure out why you wanted to leave and see if they could motivate you to stay. After the week they do a follow-up and if you still no longer wish to be there they give you a “Failure to Adapt” discharge and get mustered out immediately from what I understand it’s basically like they never were in the Army in the first place. Now after boot camp when you’re sent to Advanced Individual Training it gets trickier to get it, I believe if you’re still within the 180 days you can still request it but now you REALLY need to show you can’t properly function in the Army, basically have someone other than a doctor sign off on it and then you’re out but now it’s basically a General Discharge and stays with you on background checks for the rest of your life. I also knew a guy who somehow made it into AIT and for whatever reason desperately wanted to get out of the Army and they gave it to him after someone in his Chain of Command signed off on it. Then finally after the 180 days are up everything after this is basically either you get out with a medical, less-than-honorable, or dishonorable discharge depending on how much you can either bullshit or be an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/69 "2020-04-24T11:44:41Z")
I have always thought that the abrupt change in Pyle’s attitude change after the blanket party was deliberate. His snap into madness was not at the end, but happened after being beaten by his fellow Marines. He hid it deep down and waited. His loud close order drill in the latrine was geared to bait Hartman in so he could kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/70 "2020-04-24T12:56:02Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > If I recall, your actual score is a %ile. So 99 is the highest you can score (I did, bragbragbrag). I’ve never taken the ASVAB or any other armed forces test, but in the standardized, percentilized tests I took in high school, I often scored in the 99th percentile, and a handful of times I got “99+” on it: I’m not sure if that means I aced the test, or if they just reported everyone that scored 99 as 99+ for that particular test, or if they only did that for a certain number of nines. But it’s true that I never got “100”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/71 "2020-04-24T13:55:05Z")
But of course, part of being in the 99th percentile would be knowing that 99 is the highest percentile, and so someone in the 99th percentile can in fact be said to have aced the test. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/72 "2020-04-24T13:57:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But of course, part of being in the 99th percentile would be knowing that 99 is the highest percentile, and so someone in the 99th percentile can in fact be said to have aced the test. Acing the test in my mind would mean answering every question correctly. If you do, you are in the 99th percentile. If you miss 3, you might still be in the 99th percentile, but you wouldn’t have aced the test. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/73 "2020-04-24T14:56:38Z")
Right, I said _someone_ in that percentile could be said to have aced it, not everyone in that percentile. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/74 "2020-04-24T15:07:09Z")
I thought that aceing a test meant that you got an A. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/75 "2020-04-24T15:23:53Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I thought that aceing a test meant that you got an A. I’d always thought it was a perfect score. Shrug. I didn’t think the ASVAB was that hard, but I’m still glad I decided to not go into the military. Longhair75, I’m not sure Pyle was at the mental point of planning anything when he was having his breakdown in the head. I think he could have easily snuck into Hartmann’s room and killed him if that was his only goal. Sure worked out great if that was his plan though. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/76 "2020-04-24T16:05:55Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I’d always thought it was a perfect score. Shrug. I didn’t think the ASVAB was that hard, but I’m still glad I decided to not go into the military. > > Longhair75, I’m not sure Pyle was at the mental point of planning anything when he was having his breakdown in the head. I think he could have easily snuck into Hartmann’s room and killed him if that was his only goal. > > Sure worked out great if that was his plan though. The ASVAB was fairly east overall, though there a was speed coding section that made it all but impossible to ace. Something like 50 numeric patterns in a few minutes time. Apparently a lot of smart well educated potential recruits were screwed up a little on the Tool User section, though that was pretty easy and a causal shade tree mechanic like myself was able to ace the section. The core sections up front weren’t really hard but would align more to typical placement tests. If you scored well on SATs or the like you would probably score very high in these sections. It appears that in 30+ years the test has changed quite a bit from when I took it. This is apparently the current test: [ASVAB Test Sections | ASVAB Practice Test Online](https://asvabpracticetestonline.com/get-know-asvab-test-sections/) If you did score very high and were working with a Navy Recruiter, he would probably then try to talk you into the Nuke Program. That involved a trip to the MEPS station (Newark, NJ in my case) to sit in a nicer room and take a much harder math & science test. Apparently, at the time I had the highest score they had seen. Something like a 75 out of 80. Hard to remember. It sounds like this process has also changed. There was a huge gotcha when I went in, The Nuke program meant a 6 year enlistment and you would go to fleet as an E4 instead of an E3 or below. But part way through bootcamp they would tell you that you were headed for EM, MM or ET training. When they made me an EM instead of the verbally promised ET, I refused to continue in the Nuke program. Hopefully this is no longer the case. It was absolutely a very fucked up situation. FTN for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/77 "2020-04-25T03:54:28Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I thought that aceing a test meant that you got an A. Or that you shot down five planes on your way to school. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/78 "2020-04-25T06:32:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As a rule, competent soldiers don’t shoot their sergeants and then themselves. He may have learned how to load and fire a weapon, but that came at the expense of his sanity Pyle learned both his weapon skill AND his antisocial/psychopathic mindset directly from his Sergeant. He is the only soldier in that outfit that embraced the full learning package the Sergeant presented. The rest of the squad skimped on the “hate and despise and abuse your fellow man” part of it. Pyle is the only recruit that graduated as the Sergeant trained him. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/79 "2020-04-25T07:12:36Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > Pyle learned both his weapon skill AND his antisocial/psychopathic mindset directly from his Sergeant. He is the only soldier in that outfit that embraced the full learning package the Sergeant presented. The rest of the squad skimped on the “hate and despise and abuse your fellow man” part of it. Pyle is the only recruit that graduated as the Sergeant trained him. Hadn’t thought about it that way. It seems Private Pyle was a success story. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/80 "2020-04-25T11:35:31Z")
It’s a fine line that militaries walk. To turn a civilian into a warrior, you have to break down all the rules imposed on us by evolution and society against killing, because killing is their job… but not break them down _too_ much, lest they start killing the people they’re not supposed to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409.md?page=5)