# Was Leonard/aka "Private Pyle" in Full Metal Jacket "special"? Or was there something else going on? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 23, 2020, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409 "2020-04-23T05:58:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/81 "2020-04-25T14:35:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Marine chow is actually _worse_ than the Army’s? Enough so that marines would fake being soldiers to get Army food? Wow, that’s bad. > > My uncle who was in the Army (Vietnam era, but stationed in Germany) said that he always loved getting sent on errands to the Air Force side of the base, because the chow was so much better there. Marine chow was always the worst, in my experience. My first tour was in RVN, stationed on a Marine base. The food was uniformly awful. Luckily, we were the masters of cumshaw and were always able to trade for cases of steak or chicken for our own cookouts. Whenever circumstance dictated that I had to eat Marine chow at any other time in my career, it only confirmed that it was barely edible. And yeah, AF chow was the best. The first time I ate at one of their mess halls, I was startled to see an ice cream station. And there were actually choices of main courses at all meals. I spent one whole deployment at an AF base and never ate so well again in the military. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/82 "2020-04-26T02:13:46Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > There was a huge gotcha when I went in, The Nuke program meant a 6 year enlistment and you would go to fleet as an E4 instead of an E3 or below. But part way through bootcamp they would tell you that you were headed for EM, MM or ET training. When they made me an EM instead of the verbally promised ET, I refused to continue in the Nuke program. Hopefully this is no longer the case. It was absolutely a very fucked up situation. FTN for sure. Not in touch with my first husband, who was a nuke but mrAru started to become a nuke and was ‘fallout’ about two thirds through nuke school [serious run in with pneumonia - almost killed him, he opted to just shift to standard MM instead of recycling] I will say that many of the nukes we do know are scary smart. I took the ASVAB back in the late 70s, and I did well enough that I was pursued for several years, even while I was doing seminars in DC for my poli sci degree [funniest thing was when I was actually doing one at the CIA they were actively trying to recruit me by telling me that going into intel would make the switch to working for an alphabet agency ‘easy’ \ while sitting in the caffeteria on a lunch break …]I remember the mechanical aptitude as simple [been apprenticed as an inside outside mechanic for a year by this point] and the coding as annoying more than difficult. I thought the SATs were more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/83 "2020-04-26T06:19:21Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Well they don’t make it easy. > > In boot camp, there was only 1 recruit in my platoon that actually got washed out. He basically sat down on the floor one day and refused to do anything. Got yelled at, threatened, to no avail. They had MPs come and take him away. No idea what happened to him. > > In boot camp, if you fail a phase such as the range, you get ‘dropped’ back to a training company that is in training phase behind you. We had a pair of twin brothers dropped to us because they both failed to qualify on the range. When we went, they failed again. I believe that they were intentionally failing to try to get out. With all of the instruction, it’s damn near impossible to UNQ twice in a row. Not sure what happened with them. > > In boot camp if you are injured and unable to train, you don’t get to leave unless it’s a really serious injury. Instead, you get sent to MRP, the Medical Rehabilitation Platoon, where from what I understand you go to your physical therapy and appointments and get assigned to working parties. Some guys spend, literally, months there. Once you’re fixed up, you drop to a training company at the phase you were removed from you original one. > > If your body composition or physical fitness are questionable, you are sent to PCP, Physical Conditioning Platoon. At PCP you basically PT all day long until you pass the physical fitness test, and likewise are put back at a training company. > > At SOI, we had at least 2 dudes who got out because they were ‘suicidal’. I don’t know if they were or not, but basically you CAN fake it until you make it with that one. They got out before SOI was over. I spent several days sitting in the rec room watching them. > > Once you get to the fleet it’s possible to get out for injuries if that’s the direction you’re leaning. I can think of at least 3 in my company that I think probably milked recoverable injuries to a discharge. Heck, I had an ankle injury once and the Navy doctor straight up asked me if I wanted to be discharged. > > Then there was one guy who got discharged for being suicidal. I actually believe that was the case with him. At one point he was standing in his window on the 4th floor off the barracks…sooooo. He was a troubled dude. Guy didn’t look in shape at all, but one day he got a perfect score on the run portion of the PFT, 3 miles in 18:00. I asked someone wtf, and they said he just went out and ran all night, every night. I still remember him waving from the back of a USO van on his way off base for the last time. > > And then of course, you can wash out by doing something to get dishonorably discharged, like dealing drugs. Which happened to a few guys in the 2nd platoon of my company. Several ended up in Leavenworth. Thereon, that platoon was known as “dimebag deuce”. > > ETA: also had one guy in our company get discharged because he intentionally kept gaining weight. I heard the Marines had an RTT squadron: “Refuse to Train” which happened when former world champion boxer Riddick Bowie washed out. In it, you can quit basic training at any time but can’t leave camp and must attend and watch every boot camp activity in shame until the 13 or whatever weeks are over. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/84 "2020-04-26T06:21:14Z")
> [@LH75](#): > > I have always thought that the abrupt change in Pyle’s attitude change after the blanket party was deliberate. His snap into madness was not at the end, but happened after being beaten by his fellow Marines. He hid it deep down and waited. His loud close order drill in the latrine was geared to bait Hartman in so he could kill him. In a perverted way, based on what the movie was trying to accomplish, in Stanley Kubricks mind did this make Pyle a good Marine? ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/85 "2020-04-26T06:23:58Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It’s been a long while since I saw the movie but the one thing that seemed odd to me was that, after Pyle murdered Hartman and committed suicide, Joker (and presumably the others) were still sent overseas. Surely there would have been an investigation? Media firestorm? Don’t know about the media firestorm though this was 7000 miles away from America. As for the investigation, you have a sergeant with a bullet hole in his chest, and a marine with a bullet hole in his larynx, I don’t think that would be hard to explain with 30 witnesses testifying Pyle was yelling. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/86 "2020-04-26T10:46:42Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > In a perverted way, based on what the movie was trying to accomplish, in Stanley Kubricks mind did this make Pyle a good Marine? JMESHO here, but Kubrick’s goal was to show that all of the Marines excepting only the cynical Joker were flawed with many of them becoming brutal killing machines. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/87 "2020-04-26T14:53:01Z")
Re: **Sicks Ate** ’s post above: Pyle should have been much thinner by “graduation” day, if he was indeed now passing all of the PT benchmarks that he formerly was failing. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/88 "2020-04-26T15:13:45Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Re: **Sicks Ate** ’s post above: Pyle should have been much thinner by “graduation” day, if he was indeed now passing all of the PT benchmarks that he formerly was failing. I think VD couldnt take that much weight off because of the timeframe of the shooting schedule. He actually added seventy pounds for the role. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/89 "2020-04-26T15:29:41Z")
FYI, this movie was released in 1987, the same year as Adventures in Babysitting. In that movie, he was a buff auto mechanic one of the kids thinks resembles Thor. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/90 "2020-04-26T17:22:29Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > And yeah, AF chow was the best. The first time I ate at one of their mess halls, I was startled to see an ice cream station. And there were actually choices of main courses at all meals. I spent one whole deployment at an AF base and never ate so well again in the military. During my stint in the navy the food ranged from, “Eh. It’s edible.” to “Pretty damn good.” – When I was at Corry Field it won the small base Ney award. Then I went to Okinawa where at Torii Station we were a tenant command on an army base. The best you could say there was that the food wouldn’t kill you. Once when sitting across from a corporal I asked how Torii’s chowhall compared to other army chowhalls he’d been to. He replied it wasn’t the _best_ he’d had but it was far from the worst. “Man, I feel sorry for you; I haven’t eaten this bad since bootcamp,” where it was prepared by fellow recruits under the supervision of real Commisarymen. My buddies and I would eat at least once a week in the restaurant just outside the base just for the sheer pleasure of it. I was quite happy when my tour was up and I got back to eating navy chow again. And yet… People at Kadena AFB, seven miles down the road, at lunchtime would drive up to Torii and _pay money_ to eat at our chowhall. I had to wonder how bad their was to prompt that. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/91 "2020-04-26T17:38:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > FYI, this movie was released in 1987, the same year as Adventures in Babysitting. In that movie, he was a buff auto mechanic one of the kids thinks resembles Thor. I checked IMDB, and I still can’t believe it from movie stills. ---
**Author:** ![CGHJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@CGHJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGHJ)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/92 "2020-04-26T22:42:54Z")
Anecdotally, I was in the USAF back in the 90s, and we had a Pyle in our training flight. He couldn’t figure out basic tasks like marching, and had to have a ‘helper’ a la Pvt Joker assigned to him to manage his locker. Our TI (Air Force drill instructor) appointed him to trash duty, and made him walk through the bays every night banging a trash can yelling “WOO WOO WOO TRAAAAAASH!!”, which from the TI was supposed to be punishment but actually made the kid feel special. He was an ornery hillbilly from Tennessee so none of us really wanted to deal with him. I saw him several months later, at tech school where you learn your actual job. There were several schools on base, all separate. I was in weather. He was in… …satellite communication. BTW I’ve been lurking around here forever, I never signed up because I will absolutely end up spending all my time on here and not getting anything done. I had to comment though. Pyle’s exist in the modern era, and even in the Air Force. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/93 "2020-04-27T00:12:46Z")
> [@CGHJ](#): > > BTW I’ve been lurking around here forever, I never signed up because I will absolutely end up spending all my time on here and not getting anything done. There’s no life like an internet no-life. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/94 "2020-04-27T02:20:25Z")
> [@CGHJ](#): > > Anecdotally, I was in the USAF back in the 90s, and we had a Pyle in our training flight. He couldn’t figure out basic tasks like marching, and had to have a ‘helper’ a la Pvt Joker assigned to him to manage his locker. Our TI (Air Force drill instructor) appointed him to trash duty, and made him walk through the bays every night banging a trash can yelling “WOO WOO WOO TRAAAAAASH!!”, which from the TI was supposed to be punishment but actually made the kid feel special. He was an ornery hillbilly from Tennessee so none of us really wanted to deal with him. > > I saw him several months later, at tech school where you learn your actual job. There were several schools on base, all separate. I was in weather. He was in… > > …satellite communication. > > BTW I’ve been lurking around here forever, I never signed up because I will absolutely end up spending all my time on here and not getting anything done. I had to comment though. Pyle’s exist in the modern era, and even in the Air Force. LOL. Isn’t that one of the, if not the, MOS in the AF that requires the highest ASVAB to ask for in a recruiting contract? Thought I remembered that one of the satellite tech jobs was thought ridiculously complicated by the military. What Exit, why was Electricians Mate (Nuclear, Submarines), so much worse than Electronics Technician (Nuclear, Submarines)? Don’t both basically babysit the teakettle? It’s not like you’re riding a needle gun, chasing turds as a HT, or cranking. Scratch that, AIUI, you are cranking until you become qualified. But seriously, I know “choose your rate, choose your fate”, but why was EM so much more onerous than ET? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/95 "2020-04-27T02:28:30Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > I heard the Marines had an RTT squadron: “Refuse to Train” which happened when former world champion boxer Riddick Bowie washed out. In it, you can quit basic training at any time but can’t leave camp and must attend and watch every boot camp activity in shame > until the 13 or whatever weeks are over. Again, never done this myself, but the saying is that it takes less time to just do what they tell you, then it does to quit. It ain’t the SEALs, or any other unit with a Selection. No idea if that changes if you jump off the third deck and land on your head, or otherwise make it more unpleasant for them to keep you than to kick you out. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/96 "2020-04-27T03:47:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The military at the time - and maybe still - believed that it could make a warrior out of anyone. It believed that enlisted men were interchangeable blank slates, featureless lumps of clay that it could press into whatever form they want. Gomer Pyle was the film’s way of showing how wrong they were - that some people were just not meant to be soldiers, and that forcing them to be can have disastrous results. What was wrong with him is irrelevant; the point is, he had no business being there in the first place. The vast majority of young men can be turned into competent soldiers. That’s why in times of war they can find lots of them. The washout rate is usually 5-10%; I know in my basic training platoon we lived up to that, dropping seven people out of about 70. Most quit. A few were Pyles, just hopeless oafs. The point of the movie (and the book upon which it’s based) isn’t poor recruiting policy, it’s dehumanization. Pyle is weak and stupid, and not a good Marine, to be sure, but he goes crazy and neither Hartman, not any other officer or NCO, have a problem with him because he started doing what he was told and conforming. It’s by his behaving like a good soldier that they miss his insanity. In the film, Joker notes that he thinks Pyle is a Section 8. Joker, not yet a full Marine and not dehumanized, can see Pyle is insane. No one does anything about it, though. In the book, the gunnery sergeant (named Gerheim; I guess they changed it to something more easily understood) actually hits Joker for daring to say that. To him, Pyle is obedient and ready to kill, and so is a suitable Marine. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/97 "2020-04-27T14:19:37Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > …why was Electricians Mate (Nuclear, Submarines), so much worse than Electronics Technician (Nuclear, Submarines)? Don’t both basically babysit the teakettle? It’s not like you’re riding a needle gun, chasing turds as a HT, or cranking. Scratch that, AIUI, you are cranking until you become qualified. But seriously, I know “choose your rate, choose your fate”, but why was EM so much more onerous than ET? I can’t answer for WhatExit?, but there are differences, with some crossover. ETs are electronics specialists, maintaining the controls and instrumentation for the plant. Also usually secondary control(the local electronics, not the remote indicators and operators in the control room) and reactor operator watches. EMs are motors, generators, MG sets, power distribution. Watches are EO/ load center and some local or roving watches. Ours sat RO watches, but we never stood EO watches except for quals. MMs maintain the machinery; pumps gearboxes, piping related stuff, bearings. They weren’t a normal control room watch; they were generally stationed in the engine room (upper level or lower level if applicable), or auxiliary machinery. Most would stand throttleman, and everyone started as ‘messenger’. ET and MM didn’t share watches except throttles (nominally MM). I can nod along with not trusting the Navy one damn bit if they broke their word like that, but I’m surprised they guaranteed anyone a particular rate. I think I was already in when they told me, but that was a while ago. For me, if we were not in the top 2/3 of our ET ‘A’ school at the halfway point (at any point?), we would become regular ETs. ‘A’ school was the longest for ETs. Most people considered the 3 rates as having a definite hierarchy of smart, from ET to EM to MM. This was a generalization like most generalizations. As far as personnel, I would probably have been less unhappy as an electrician; they were the most normal as people in my experience (ET= dorks, EM= can pass as normal, MM= partiers). The civilian prospects are similar for all, unless you were trying for something specifically in electronics or as an electrician. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/98 "2020-04-27T14:43:49Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Marine chow was always the worst, in my experience. My first tour was in RVN, stationed on a Marine base. The food was uniformly awful. Luckily, we were the masters of cumshaw and were always able to trade for cases of steak or chicken for our own cookouts. Whenever circumstance dictated that I had to eat Marine chow at any other time in my career, it only confirmed that it was barely edible. > > And yeah, AF chow was the best. The first time I ate at one of their mess halls, I was startled to see an ice cream station. And there were actually choices of main courses at all meals. I spent one whole deployment at an AF base and never ate so well again in the military. My fondest memory of military chow was actually on a Navy base. Spent several weeks a couple different times at the Puualoa range on the west side of Pearl Harbor and we ate at the Navy’s mess. Good food, but the really shocking thing was when we were done with our first meal there, we couldn’t figure out where to take our trays. Finally realized they had employees (all of the workers were civilians) that would bus them for you :eek: Not sure how it works now, but at the time there were no civilian employees in Marine Corps chow halls, unlike AF and Navy (never ate at an Army base). ETA: but, Marine chow wasn’t bad. Bland and uninteresting sometimes, but perfectly edible. With the very, very notable exception of food at the chow hall at the Puhakuloa Training Area on the big island. Absolute dreck. Spent a lot of money at the PX and ate a lot of leftover MREs. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > I heard the Marines had an RTT squadron: “Refuse to Train” which happened when former world champion boxer Riddick Bowie washed out. In it, you can quit basic training at any time but can’t leave camp and must attend and watch every boot camp activity in shame > until the 13 or whatever weeks are over. I don’t recall that, but it might have slipped my mind. I do believe that the MRP and PCP recruits attended every graduation for ‘motivation’. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/99 "2020-04-27T15:51:23Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > I can’t answer for WhatExit?, but there are differences, with some crossover. > ETs are electronics specialists, maintaining the controls and instrumentation for the plant. Also usually secondary control(the local electronics, not the remote indicators and operators in the control room) and reactor operator watches. > EMs are motors, generators, MG sets, power distribution. Watches are EO/ load center and some local or roving watches. Ours sat RO watches, but we never stood EO watches except for quals. > MMs maintain the machinery; pumps gearboxes, piping related stuff, bearings. They weren’t a normal control room watch; they were generally stationed in the engine room (upper level or lower level if applicable), or auxiliary machinery. > > Most would stand throttleman, and everyone started as ‘messenger’. ET and MM didn’t share watches except throttles (nominally MM). > > I can nod along with not trusting the Navy one damn bit if they broke their word like that, but I’m surprised they guaranteed anyone a particular rate. I think I was already in when they told me, but that was a while ago. For me, if we were not in the top 2/3 of our ET ‘A’ school at the halfway point (at any point?), we would become regular ETs. ‘A’ school was the longest for ETs. > > Most people considered the 3 rates as having a definite hierarchy of smart, from ET to EM to MM. This was a generalization like most generalizations. As far as personnel, I would probably have been less unhappy as an electrician; they were the most normal as people in my experience (ET= dorks, EM= can pass as normal, MM= partiers). The civilian prospects are similar for all, unless you were trying for something specifically in electronics or as an electrician. Thanks. That helped me understand the differences. Long ago, when I thought about trying to be a nuc, I knew those were the three rates primarily dealing with the reactor, but I didn’t know the differences in their duties. I had thought that, if it wasn’t in the contract, don’t count on getting it? Also, that nuke school and the direct enlistment program to the SEALs (Option 40?) were the best things ever created for general Navy recruitment. The attrition from both was so high, and both programs, AIUI, dumped recruits into ‘needs of the Navy’ if they washed out, that it was a fantastic way for the Navy to get personnel for all of the scutwork jobs and ratings that they would have a hard time filling. I guess aviation programs were similar. I hope the gigantic amount of time contracted to serve the Navy that pilot candidates agreed to, got modified if they washed out of the program. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409/100 "2020-04-27T16:15:26Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > What Exit, why was Electricians Mate (Nuclear, Submarines), so much worse than Electronics Technician (Nuclear, Submarines)? Don’t both basically babysit the teakettle? It’s not like you’re riding a needle gun, chasing turds as a HT, or cranking. Scratch that, AIUI, you are cranking until you become qualified. But seriously, I know “choose your rate, choose your fate”, but why was EM so much more onerous than ET? I went in for one of the Electronics Rates. ET would count as more credits towards an EE degree. The recruiter basically tricked me and the Navy didn’t care so I said fuck it. I came close to giving it up complete but could only do that as an other than honorable discharge and didn’t want to go that route. EMs job is a lot different from ET as \*\*sps49sd \*\* so well explained. If you think your guaranteed a rate and then they yank the rug out from under you, you would probably be pissed off also. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-leonard-aka-private-pyle-in-full-metal-jacket-special-or-was-there-something-else-going-on/852409.md?page=6)