# Was Nagasaki the greater U.S. sin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202 "2013-01-05T23:02:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/121 "2013-01-07T19:26:49Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Yep. > > If nothing else people were just tired of that shit. When you are worn out and thoroughly tired of that shit at some point you don’t really give a flying fuck about how ending it effects the folks that started the shit in the first place and did their best to keep up the shit and make it as difficult and uncivilized as it could be to boot. > > Hell, I didn’t even have to suffer through any of that crap and I have little trouble getting into it a “it sucks to be you” state of mind about the whole thing. > > Though, even on an intellectual, practical, and moral level I still think both bombings were totally justified. Certainly IMO justified enough that at best its a case of “maybe things could have been played out a bit differently” and certainly not evil dialed up to elevently. And even on this very board, the bastion of tolerance, on the thread the day that 9/11 happened we had otherwise reasonable posters talking about “killing them all” and turned places into “glass parking lots.” No need to reopen old wounds and its all on here. Now, imagine 9/11 and for the next four years you open the newspaper and read about 1,000 dead Americans each WEEK. Then you read about how Afghanistan is nearly defeated, but they start kamikaze attacks. Read about how they brutally execute thousands of our prisoners of war. Read about how they refuse to surrender on remote islands and force our troops to kill them all because they won’t surrender and keep firing. After four years of that, would anyone here have any qualms about dropping a nuke? Or do we tell the civilians that we must continue the course so as not to offend future generations who we have no idea would be offended? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/122 "2013-01-07T19:32:17Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Negotiating with war criminals is a horrible thing to contemplate, but in fact it’s not so different with what actually happened. Hirohito, for example, was absolved of all responsibility, and as I said in my last post, the post-war make-up of Japan’s government was not radically changed. Some war criminals were punished, while others were not. Practicality often trumped justice. > > So really, the question is, was that measure of justice worth the lives and suffering caused by another year of war in the Pacific? That’s not a decision I’d want to have to take. > > In war, often there are no good options. > > True, but that may have more to do with the development of nuclear weapons and dynamics of the cold war and the than the decisions made at Casablanca. And there have been several wars and genocides since WWII. > > WWII was a victory of less-evil over evil. The British had the Empire. The US, segregation. The USSR, oppression and purges. The Allies allowed a powerless figurehead Emperor - which would be preferable to a third bomb and the ongoing war in anyone’s book. Axis fascism was crushed, totally and utterly as an example for the rest of the world. That’s not to say that other problems didn’t crop up, but we put that particular one down with devastating finality and tremendous effort. I’m with **Little Nemo** on the second point, the United States and Britain were not remotely equivalent to the Axis. Good Guy United States, has most powerful weapon ever devised to itself and decides to rebuild Europe. They had their problems sure, but waging aggressive wars of extermination was not one of them. As for the USSR, that was a deal with the devil we had to take. Even arch-Bolshevik haters like Churchill recognised that Hitler posed a far greater threat to world peace than Stalin. Besides which, the combined forces of the United States and her industrial might along with bankrupt Britain and her Dominions could [not](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Allied_army_positions_on_10_May_1945.png) have taken down Stalinist Russia. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/123 "2013-01-07T19:42:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Now, imagine 9/11 and for the next four years you open the newspaper and read about 1,000 dead Americans each WEEK. Then you read about how Afghanistan is nearly defeated, but they start kamikaze attacks. Read about how they brutally execute thousands of our prisoners of war. Read about how they refuse to surrender on remote islands and force our troops to kill them all because they won’t surrender and keep firing. Yep. I think in the distant future historians will be in awe of how the USA behaved post WWII when it came to its “enemies”. And, IMO, for that matter, the amount of handwringing and discussions about how to use the bomb or not at the end by various people in power makes me proud to be an American. The end WWII was the Apollo 13 of history. Bad shit was going down and in the end the best of what makes America best bubbled to the top when it counted. Damn, I have something in my eye. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/124 "2013-01-07T21:19:37Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The Allies allowed a powerless figurehead Emperor - which would be preferable to a third bomb and the ongoing war in anyone’s book. I agree. However, I repeat my question. Was it really worth hundreds of thousands of deaths to obtain a few thousand war crimes convictions? Did you know, for example, that General MacArthur granted immunity to [Shiro Ishii](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiro_Ishii) and other members of [Unit 731](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731) in return for information on germ warfare, which was obtained through human experimentation? Was this justice? > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > I’m with **Little Nemo** on the second point, the United States and Britain were not remotely equivalent to the Axis. I agree, but some of our history is very black indeed. Such as British and US use of concentration camps in the Boer and Philippine–American wars. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Good Guy United States, has most powerful weapon ever devised to itself and decides to rebuild Europe. The US certainly deserves credit for implementing the Marshall Plan. However, it wasn’t purely altruistic. It’s stated aim was to prevent the spread of communism in Europe. > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > As for the USSR, that was a deal with the devil we had to take. Again, I agree. > [@jtgain](#): > > After four years of that, would anyone here have any qualms about dropping a nuke? Or do we tell the civilians that we must continue the course so as not to offend future generations who we have no idea would be offended? Who takes offence is of no importance. It’s about the deaths of thousands of people, some of whom died in prolonged agony, which could perhaps have been prevented. At the very least, it’s worth reflecting on. > [@billfish678](#): > > Bad shit was going down and in the end the best of what makes America best bubbled to the top when it counted. I think that’s true, and should be remembered. But some of the worst bubbled up too, and that shouldn’t be forgotten either. I don’t have a problem with patriotism as such, the celebration of the best a country can produce. But it becomes facile and unhealthy when anything at odds with the image being projected is swept under the carpet. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/125 "2013-01-07T21:48:05Z")
Whose sweeping? Most of what I’m seeing in this thread is explaining. I seem to recall one poster here talking about Japanese education about WWII. Which apparently was something along the lines of some things happened and then they nuked our asses. Now THATS some sweeping. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/126 "2013-01-07T22:00:29Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I agree. However, I repeat my question. Was it really worth hundreds of thousands of deaths to obtain a few thousand war crimes convictions? Did you know, for example, that General MacArthur granted immunity to [Shiro Ishii](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiro_Ishii) and other members of [Unit 731](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731) in return for information on germ warfare, which was obtained through human experimentation? Was this justice? To be honest, yes. In my opinion, it would have just been adding insult to injury (a horribly pedestrian term for the horrors inflicted in that place, I know) to throw away the data gathered. It should never have happened but we can’t make it un-happen by not trying to extract some good from the data. I’m aware of the argument that using the data risks it happening again, but I don’t think that’s a concern - if it was going to happen it would, because they wouldn’t plan on getting caught and the data seized. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/127 "2013-01-07T22:05:54Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Whose sweeping? Most of what I’m seeing in this thread is explaining. It was a general comment on patriotism, and not aimed at any particular poster. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/128 "2013-01-07T22:09:56Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > The US certainly deserves credit for implementing the Marshall Plan. However, it wasn’t purely altruistic. It’s stated aim was to prevent the spread of communism in Europe. That’s like saying doctors don’t help people - they just treat disease. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/129 "2013-01-07T22:10:12Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > It was a general comment on patriotism, and not aimed at any particular poster. What people have been saying here doesn’t stem from patriotism, it stems from a considered evaluation of the events of the time. No one has been saying “My country right or wrong”, we’ve been saying “for once we did the right thing”. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/130 "2013-01-07T22:12:26Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > It was a general comment on patriotism, and not aimed at any particular poster. Okay, no problems here then (just glad I didn’t have to nuke your ass 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/131 "2013-01-08T04:25:20Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I agree. However, I repeat my question. Was it really worth hundreds of thousands of deaths to obtain a few thousand war crimes convictions? It was if it served as a deterrent against other war crimes. > [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I agree, but some of our history is very black indeed. Such as British and US use of concentration camps in the Boer and Philippine–American wars. > > I think that’s true, and should be remembered. But some of the worst bubbled up too, and that shouldn’t be forgotten either. I don’t have a problem with patriotism as such, the celebration of the best a country can produce. But it becomes facile and unhealthy when anything at odds with the image being projected is swept under the carpet. True. But we’re not talking about general American history here. We were talking about a very specific situation. I’ve already said that under other circumstances bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been immoral. But given the actual circumstances in which they were bombed, it was the more moral (or less immoral if you prefer) course of action. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/132 "2013-01-08T04:33:50Z")
If I were Truman, I wouldn’t even go into morality. With a decade of depression and four years of war, the choice would have been easy. And looming on the horizon was Stalin and a volatile China. The Allies basically settled on a strategy of Carthaginian peace with the Axis. Yes, nuke all of them into surrendering. And yes, the Romans nuked Cathage in a manner of speaking. They smashed the structures and salted the fields. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/133 "2013-01-08T04:40:41Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > If you were Chinese, it would have started years earlier than 39. Yes, but no Chinese had any say in the droppage of atomic weapons. Nor was there very much empathy for China’s plight anywhere outside of China beyond maybe the British, who might have gone “Oi ! That’s ours, chaps, what ! Find your own dastardly slanty-eyed devils to steal a country from, you… dastardly slanty-eyed devils !”. And even \*after \*Pearl Harbour, were the various foreign volunteer brigades motivated by saving the Chinese… or “sticking it to the Japs” any way they could ? I don’t \*know \*either way for sure, but I do know that the Flying Tigers didn’t fly nor tige in 1940… So, at the risk of repeating myself, implying that 8 years of warfare in China and/or Japanese exactions committed on Chinese people had taken a toll on the American psyche, that it made Americans more callous when it came time to drop the bomb isn’t quite right IMO. [QUOTE=Malacandra] And it went on after 1940, too! 😛 backatcha 😃 [/QUOTE] Of course it did ! The Germans were nicking all the potatoes and drinking all the plonk. Ghastly times. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/134 "2013-01-08T04:52:54Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes, but no Chinese had any say in the droppage of atomic weapons. > > Nor was there very much empathy for China’s plight anywhere outside of China beyond maybe the British, who might have gone “Oi ! That’s ours, chaps, what ! Find your own dastardly slanty-eyed devils to steal a country from, you… dastardly slanty-eyed devils !”. And even \*after \*Pearl Harbour, were the various foreign volunteer brigades motivated by saving the Chinese… or “sticking it to the Japs” any way they could ? I don’t \*know \*either way for sure, but I do know that the Flying Tigers didn’t fly nor tige in 1940… > > So, at the risk of repeating myself, implying that 8 years of warfare in China and/or Japanese exactions committed on Chinese people had taken a toll on the American psyche, that it made Americans more callous when it came time to drop the bomb isn’t quite right IMO. > > Of course it did ! The Germans were nicking all the potatoes and drinking all the plonk. Ghastly times. The US was very limited in what it could do for the Chinese because of laws requiring neutrality. That didn’t an extensive propaganda campaign in the US through Luce’s Time and Life and other people’s efforts. The public knew about the atrocities in China, and the US embargo of oil against Japan (we were the big producer then) forced the expansionist Japanese to attempt to secure a supply in Southeast Asia, leading directly to the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the war. The embargo was FDR’s baby. I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again here, FDR begged, borrowed, stole and lied to get the US in the war in Europe, and he did a lot in the Pacific too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/135 "2013-01-08T04:56:50Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > **Was Nagasaki the greater U.S. sin?** Well, I dunno about that; but back in Nagasaki is [where the fellers chew terbacky,](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWUZHVMl9ws) and [the women wiki-waki-woo.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAsNZwO0I8w) Talk about **sin!** :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/136 "2013-01-08T05:00:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Was it ? Would you have a cite for that ? I’m not doubting your word, but my knowledge of the Pacific situation is lackluster to say the least and I wasn’t aware the situation on the Japanese mainland was that bad… Google [Operation Starvation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Starvation), the name for the aerial mining of littoral Japanese waters. It was murderously effective. This Rand Corporation [report](http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/reports/2006/R1322.pdf) (.pdf) on the Operation, goes into more detail. Go to page 52 of the document for the effects. They cite the Strategic Bombing Survey, which notes that average caloric intake in Japan for the summer of 1945 was 1680 calories per person. This includes vital workers like miners and industrial workers, which were better fed than the populace at large. The author notes that the populace was at or below the subsistence level. Moreover, the total caloric intake was nutritionally unbalanced, ‘with corresponding low disease resistance and an increase in deficiency diseases’. (Page 56.) It would have been a brutal, horrific winter had the Allies not invaded. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/137 "2013-01-08T05:37:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Was it ? Would you have a cite for that ? I’m not doubting your word, but my knowledge of the Pacific situation is lackluster to say the least and I wasn’t aware the situation on the Japanese mainland was that bad. There is a table on the size of the Japanese merchant fleet [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_submarines_in_the_Pacific_War#Merchant_shipping_losses) and a table on Japanese rice supply [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_front_during_World_War_II#Food), note particularly the precipitous drop in both domestic production and importation in 1944 and especially 1945. > [@](#): > > The Japanese domestic food supply depended, however, on imports, which were largely cut off by the American submarine and bombing campaigns. Likewise there was little deep sea fishing, so that the fish ration by 1941 was mostly squid harvested from coastal waters. **The result was a growing food shortage, especially in the cities. There was some malnutrition but no reported starvation.** The B-29s are remembered for the bombing campaign (though on preview I see that **Gray Ghost** has scooped me a bit); but at the Navy’s insistence some were diverted to the mining of Japanese harbors which turned out to be highly successful. Though it is just the name of the operation, it doesn’t leave much to the imagination: [Operation Starvation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Starvation) > [@](#): > > Eventually most of the major ports and straits of Japan were repeatedly mined, severely disrupting Japanese logistics and troop movements for the remainder of the war with 35 of 47 essential convoy routes having to be abandoned. For instance, shipping through Kobe declined by 85%, from 320,000 tons in March to only 44,000 tons in July.[3] **Operation Starvation sank more ship tonnage in the last six months of the war than the efforts of all other sources combined.** The Twentieth Air Force flew 1,529 sorties and laid 12,135 mines in twenty-six fields on forty-six separate missions. Mining demanded only 5.7% of the XXI Bomber Command’s total sorties, and only fifteen B-29s were lost in the effort. In return, mines sank or damaged 670 ships totaling more than 1,250,000 tons. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, yeah. But that’s because most everybody was frothing at the mouth assholes back then, essentially. This is also why I don’t particularly fault the Allied command of the times for making that decision - they were product of their times. > However, the debate we’re having is, I think, more interesting to have if we base judgement, and the “what should they have done”/“was that the right thing to do” musings on our more enlightened modern sensibilities. And shit. This thread made me go back and reread Paul Fussel’s _Thank God for the Atom Bomb_ (it’s [here](http://www.uio.no/studier/emner/hf/iakh/HIS1300MET/v12/undervisningsmateriale/Fussel%20-%20thank%20god%20for%20the%20atom%20bomb.pdf) as a pdf pile). Something he said on the matter: > [@](#): > > Understanding the past requires pretending that you don’t know the present. It requires feeling its own pressure on your pulses without any ex post facto illumination. That’s a harder thing to do than Joravsky seems to think. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/138 "2013-01-08T05:56:57Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well, the plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’…but yeah, the situation on the mainland was really that bad. Older family members on my wife’s side talk about people essentially starving to death up to a year or so \*after \*the war ended - their account suggests not so much people ‘dying after not having anything to eat’, but becoming so mal-nourished and weak that they died from other causes that they normally wouldn’t have died from. Something that really added to the problem even post-war was the influx of population from the army returning home from overseas and repatriation of Japanese civilians from places such as Korea and Formosa combined with the lack of housing as a result of the bombing. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/139 "2013-01-08T06:11:16Z")
> [@Alka Seltzer](#): > > Perhaps, but who can say what the wrong peace is? It seems quite likely that the rise of the USSR would have driven Japan into the US sphere of influence anyway. The best judgment of the people in the best position to make the decision. In this case, the participants in the Casablanca Conference. > [@Alka Seltzer](#): > > That’s a little rose-tinted I’m sad to say. The occupation of Japan actually had little impact on the composition of the country’s political and business leaders. Many of those that were purged from the government returned in the early 50s. The occupation was far from a bloodless affair. At the very least, you should take a look at the wiki article. Rape was common, but all mention of criminal activity by the occupying forces was censored. Probably the most positive legacy was Japan’s new constitution, but prosperity came much later. Well, in your scenario, the Allies make peace with Japan in 1944. The military government remains in power. We can only guess at what comes next, but I doubt it would be liberal reform. In history, the Allies remake Japan into a disarmed, liberal, modern democracy. The new constitution you credit was crafted under Allied supervision and heavily based on Allied political thought. > [@Alka Seltzer](#): > > The US would have had the atomic bomb in 1945 anyway, so another war with Japan would have been very unlikely. Nor would Japan have the resources to develop nuclear weapons for many years. You’re proposing a peace settlement in 1944. The Trinity test wasn’t until July of 1945. How, then, would it have influenced a peace settlement? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202/140 "2013-01-08T15:51:37Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > 1. If I had spent years engaged in the world’s bloodiest war, and I found myself with a giant weapon that no one else possessed and could cause a totally lopsided victory with little/no loss of life on my side, I would use it, too. Repeatedly. I can understand a country willing to use the atomic bomb if Japan could not retaliate. But let’s speculate a bit and look at the current global scene. Would it be advisable for Israel to use the bomb in the Middle East in a pre-emptive strike. I suppose your answer would be no because probably all h\_ll would break-out and there would be substantial loss of life by warring nations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-nagasaki-the-greater-u-s-sin/646202.md?page=8)