# Was open defecation the norm across the world before the 1800s? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156 "2016-11-16T13:19:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/21 "2016-11-16T19:22:14Z")
_Any_ urine place in England was nationalised in the 17th century so the King’s technicians could gather enough nitrates for gunpowder etc. As for the premise of the thread, of course they didn’t. Most people from Pericles’ Athens through Caesar’s Rome to the modern era did their business in private, Mainly in buckets disposed of badly. I was told by someone that in the 1960s he saw Chinese peasants defecating in the fields as they worked, but that’s not typical of the Chinese ( however ludicrously, people who resentfully bang on about European filthiness in the Middle Ages to a demented exaggeration, generally ignore the fact the much larger cities of the Far and Near East have not extensive ancient sewer systems, certainly not to Roman standards ). The White House only got running water in 1833, rather late for the residences of the wealthy. Indoor Toilets arrived 1902. And I remember a few years back, the cities of the West Coast, every time the great storm drains flooded from the downpour, a mighty wash occurred, sweeping the numerous deposits of the homeless and normal people ( San Francisco is proud of the Western record for mass pooping in public spaces, although India may have a greater tonnage on the streets ), and separately uplifting the contents of the sewers to quietly flow down to the wild Pacific Sea. [White House Plumbing](https://www.plumbingsupply.com/pmwhitehouse.html) [San Francisco Public Defecation Map](https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/21/san-francisco-human-wasteland-project/) One can practically hear Nelson Eddy and Jeannette MacDonald warbling… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/22 "2016-11-16T19:26:29Z")
> [@Waxwinged](#): > > Cite, please? (China is the only country I’ve ever heard of, doing that on any organized level). Certainly different cultures had different levels of organization at different times. But even Wikipedia’s [history section of night soil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil#History) has examples from around the world, including the Americas. Japan may have learned from China, but it has a long history. Here’s an article about [night soil collectors in 19th century America](http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/when-american-cities-were-full-of-crap). Another one for [Victorian England](https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/it-could-be-worse-you-could-be-a-victorian-night-soil-man-1530599853.html). I’ve found references to Athens and Rome as well as many areas in Asia. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/23 "2016-11-16T19:35:04Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You let urine sit for a bit and age, then it’s useful for degreasing/cleaning and has some bleaching effect well as softening hides during the tanning process. Allowed to age, the urea in urine turns into ammonia, which is still used for cleaning purposes today. It was also used while dying fabric, and for awhile a component of urine was extracted for gunpowder manufacture. > > So piss used to be an important raw material. Supposedly, in ancient Rome textile and tanning operations used to provide pots for the public to piss in as a means of obtaining the raw material. Pecunia non olet. Emperor Vespasian imposed a tax on the distribution of urine from public urinals. “Money does not stink” is attributed to him in response to his son’s comment on the less than aesthetic nature of the tax. In several romance languages, a word for public urinals is derived from his name - French “vespasienne”. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/24 "2016-11-16T20:08:09Z")
Some still haven’t quite worked it out. [Firearms, explosives and trench of human feces found at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, feds say - oregonlive.com](http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/firearms_explosives_and_trench.html) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/25 "2016-11-16T21:24:43Z")
Canada started trying to impose sewage treatment on its relatively modern cities over the last few decades. While sewage treatment is pretty routine (just like the USA) there are/were some cities where the older areas did not treat their waste products. Montreal (or was it Quebec City?) just flushed it into the St. Lawrence (helps to have a nice current to haul it away). The CBC did a program about 20 years ago where they flushed a dye pack down a public toilet near the waterfront in Halifax and a few minutes later observed a coloured plume in the harbor. Victoria BC, IIRC still thinks it’s OK to flush some of their waste out to sea; it comes out a pipe deep in the strait south of the island and so is spread a far distance by the tidal current. Then there’s cities like Winnipeg where storm and sewage drains are combined in the old city - so when there’s a seriously heavy downpour, the sewage plant overflows and raw sewage ends up in the river, fortunately downstream from them but not from other communities. I suspect some US and European cities have similar issues. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/26 "2016-11-16T21:36:19Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Fun facts: In the 1800s, sewers were what we now call “combined sewers”, that is, they carried away both human sewage and storm water, in addition to all the horse excrement in the streets. It’s much better today when we have a separation between “sanitary sewers” and “storm sewers”, because we can treat the water differently before releasing it back into creeks and rivers, but it was irrelevant back then because nobody treated waste water anyway. On the other hand, people had to wait for rain to come and “flush” the filth from the streets. Converting all those combined sewers into separate sanitary and storm sewers has been a 150 year effort that is still ongoing. Lots of major US cities still have combined sewers. The one I live near, for example. It has _no_ plans to fix this. They just keep upgrading the sewer capacity to handle runoff and when stuff inevitably overflows, they just pay the fines. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/27 "2016-11-16T22:28:30Z")
SF had a combined sewer. No big rush to do anything about it - until the effort got funded. The area near the discharge point was not developed until the late 40’s. Once there was a huge sum of money involved, all kinds of people became quite earnest in their resolve to clean up. As it were. An example of the new system: When it comes to the attention of TPTB that a storm drain is being used as an industrial waste disposal, the city springs into action and paints a cute graphic: “Drains into the ocean. Please do not pollute”. I’m old; I get to be cynical ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/28 "2016-11-16T22:33:19Z")
The Indus Valley Civilization, which was a Bronze Age civilization (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) had the world’s earliest known system of flush toilets. With a number of courtyard houses having both a washing platform and a dedicated toilet / waste disposal hole. The toilet holes would be flushed by emptying a jar of water, drawn from the house’s central well, through a clay brick pipe and into a shared brick drain, that would feed into an adjacent soakpit (cesspit). [cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitation_of_the_Indus_Valley_Civilisation) ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/29 "2016-11-16T23:21:51Z")
Certainly there are exceptions. The Indian Viceroy launched a small pointless invasion of Tibet, to the horror of the British and most other governments. It didn’t achieve much, not many deaths, and they parted friends; but at the town of Phari the invaders were disgruntled that the excrement of ages was so high they had to cut holes through it to reach the front doors. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/30 "2016-11-16T23:43:00Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Certainly there are exceptions. The Indian Viceroy launched a small pointless invasion of Tibet, to the horror of the British and most other governments. It didn’t achieve much, not many deaths, and they parted friends; but at the town of Phari the invaders were disgruntled that the excrement of ages was so high they had to cut holes through it to reach the front doors. Huh ? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/31 "2016-11-16T23:54:28Z")
Well, it is a cold country. And the theocracy was not run in order to benefit the average Tibetan. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/32 "2016-11-17T00:15:16Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > SF had a combined sewer. No big rush to do anything about it - until the effort got funded. > The area near the discharge point was not developed until the late 40’s. > Once there was a huge sum of money involved, all kinds of people became quite earnest in their resolve to clean up. As it were. > > An example of the new system: When it comes to the attention of TPTB that a storm drain is being used as an industrial waste disposal, the city springs into action and paints a cute graphic: > > “Drains into the ocean. Please do not pollute”. > > I’m old; I get to be cynical I’m old too, and I prefer the truth. First, San Francisco still has combined sewers, with no plans to change them. [Here](http://www.sfwater.org/index.aspx?page=398) is a cite from this year. There are some efforts to limit the amount of storm water into the sewer so that it doesn’t overflow the system, but no plans to build a separate storm water drain system. Second, those cute signs are designed to keep individual citizens from dumping motor oil or other toxic substances into the drains, not to counteract industrial waste disposal. If you live in SF and know of any industrial waste disposal into the storm drains, please call 311 and report it. One of the mandates of Friends of the Urban Forest in SF, with which I am a volunteer, is to reduce the amount of runoff going into the sewers by replacing as much concrete as possible either with sidewalk tree basins or with sidewalk gardens, that allow rainwater to soak into the ground and replenish the water table. It’s a long job, but every bit helps. ---
**Author:** ![correlophus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@correlophus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/correlophus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/33 "2016-11-17T00:21:03Z")
Using of night soil was also practiced in the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, where feces transporters would move the excrement by canoes to fields as a fertilizer. I am surprised how generally people of older times did not get disgusted. Either disgust about feces isn’t in our natures (our primate relatives and retards play with feces all the time), or else people were forced to put up with so much filth. But why to put up? Why generally every amenity that made our lives more comfortable must have arisen after the Industrial Revolution? Surely some technology was in existence much before that point, yet people were content to the ways of the past for centuries. They didn’t bother fixing the sewage problem. Again Jews were a step ahead. God commanded the Israelites in the Old Testament, when on a campain, to have a spade with them, in order to bury their excrement. Generally why Western Europe was surprisingly backwards in matters of hygiene, while other cultures, some of them supposedly primitive and some much more ancient, cared more about it? I blame christianity, which demonized cleanliness and concern for the body. Even bathing the body was a gateway to sin, prostitution, etc in medieval christians’ eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/34 "2016-11-17T00:31:31Z")
> [@correlophus](#): > > Again Jews were a step ahead. God commanded the Israelites in the Old Testament, when on a campain, to have a spade with them, in order to bury their excrement. Generally why Western Europe was surprisingly backwards in matters of hygiene, while other cultures, some of them supposedly primitive and some much more ancient, cared more about it? I blame christianity, which demonized cleanliness and concern for the body. Even bathing the body was a gateway to sin, prostitution, etc in medieval christians’ eyes. Perhaps a bit of a backlash against the rather OCD regulations for sin-cleansing hygiene a la Leviticus and Deuteronomy, no? ISTR a rather amusing treatment of this subject in the fictional _Lamb_ by Christopher Moore. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/35 "2016-11-17T00:43:51Z")
> [@correlophus](#): > > Generally why Western Europe was surprisingly backwards in matters of hygiene, while other cultures, some of them supposedly primitive and some much more ancient, cared more about it? Which ? The Middle East didn’t smell that fragrant until 100 years ago. Plus many places had flies, lots of flies. > [@](#): > > I blame christianity, which demonized cleanliness and concern for the body. Even bathing the body was a gateway to sin, prostitution, etc in medieval christians’ eyes. No. Most European towns of the [High Middle Ages](https://keripeardon.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/) had public baths, and officials called Scavengers [like Customs Officers] who directed, however insufficiently, the disposal of waste. Even some orders of monks bathed regularly. It was only the occasional religious who forewent cleanliness, such as Thomas A’Becket. But he was a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![medstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@medstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medstar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/36 "2016-11-17T01:07:27Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The Indus Valley Civilization, which was a Bronze Age civilization (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) had the world’s earliest known system of flush toilets. With a number of courtyard houses having both a washing platform and a dedicated toilet / waste disposal hole. The toilet holes would be flushed by emptying a jar of water, drawn from the house’s central well, through a clay brick pipe and into a shared brick drain, that would feed into an adjacent soakpit (cesspit). > > [cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitation_of_the_Indus_Valley_Civilisation) That’s a far cry from the scene in Slumdog Millionaire where the outdoor toilets had huge piles of human waste underneath them. The stench must have been horrendous.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/37 "2016-11-17T01:30:22Z")
> [@medstar](#): > > That’s a far cry from the scene in Slumdog Millionaire where the outdoor toilets had huge piles of human waste underneath them. The stench must have been horrendous.:eek: A lot of invasions by Greeks, Muslim Invaders followed by colonizations/looting by Brits / Portuguese / French / Dutch / Spanish will do that to you ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/38 "2016-11-17T01:37:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes, urine was very useful for tanning (as was dog muck. Which is a polite way to say “shit”). Alchemists boiled urine for its phosphorus, too ; and it was also used in the fabrication of saltpeter for gunpowder. My understanding that the unusually high proportion of Jews in the fur trade to this day dates from the Christian medieval period, in which every Guild (and profession) was forbidden to Jews, except finance (or usury, depending on who you ask) and the truly rank necessary ones–rank physically this time, not doctrinally–such as tanning. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/39 "2016-11-17T06:45:30Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Which ? The Middle East didn’t smell that fragrant until 100 years ago. Plus many places had flies, lots of flies. > > No. Most European towns of the [High Middle Ages](https://keripeardon.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/bathing-in-the-middle-ages/) had public baths, and officials called Scavengers [like Customs Officers] who directed, however insufficiently, the disposal of waste. > > Even some orders of monks bathed regularly. It was only the occasional religious who forewent cleanliness, such as Thomas A’Becket. But he was a traitor. If not bathing had been the norm, Isabella’s vow to not bathe or change undergarments until Granada fell would have gone unnoticed rather than serving as the trigger for five-centuries’ worth of jokes about the Moors surrendering to her eau-de-unwashed and not her troops. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/40 "2016-11-17T09:13:57Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Certainly different cultures had different levels of organization at different times. But even Wikipedia’s [history section of night soil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil#History) has examples from around the world, including the Americas. Japan may have learned from China, but it has a long history. Here’s an article about [night soil collectors in 19th century America](http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/when-american-cities-were-full-of-crap). Another one for [Victorian England](https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/it-could-be-worse-you-could-be-a-victorian-night-soil-man-1530599853.html). I’ve found references to Athens and Rome as well as many areas in Asia. Common in Australia until the early 20th century. Generally shipped by cesspit cleaners / nightsoil men to, mainly Chinese, market gardeners on the edge of towns. There was also a government sewage farm in Sydney, near Mascot Airport, that experimented with diverting the waste stream to industrial scale farmlands, on the logic that it generated profits and reduced the need to upgrade infrastructure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156.md?page=3)