# Was open defecation the norm across the world before the 1800s? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156 "2016-11-16T13:19:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/41 "2016-11-17T10:45:51Z")
There still is a market for fertilizer manufactured from human waste. The Massachusetts Water Reclamation Authority sells [Bay State Fertilizer](http://www.baystatefertilizer.com/) which is, essentially, treated human waste. Because it has been processed it is more hygienic than raw shit but basically it’s Boston’s night soil in a bag. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/42 "2016-11-17T15:53:46Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There still is a market for fertilizer manufactured from human waste. The Massachusetts Water Reclamation Authority sells [Bay State Fertilizer](http://www.baystatefertilizer.com/) which is, essentially, treated human waste. Similarly, [Milorganite](http://www.milorganite.com/) fertilizer is Milwaukee poop. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![correlophus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@correlophus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/correlophus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/43 "2016-11-17T18:13:27Z")
> [@Elemenopy](#): > > Perhaps a bit of a backlash against the rather OCD regulations for sin-cleansing hygiene a la Leviticus and Deuteronomy, no? > > ISTR a rather amusing treatment of this subject in the fictional _Lamb_ by Christopher Moore. Christians generally kept whatever was convenient for their purposes from Leviticus, and tossed away most of the others. They did away with all these difficult regulations about purity and sin, but at the same time more than happily kept the proscriptions against homosexuality, adultery, incest etc. What is that book you recommend in a few words about? An interesting article is the below one by a Jew about the history and reasons for bathing, although he mostly deals with hot and relaxing baths. He talks about the state in Medieval times as well. > **[Why do we bathe?](https://shkrobius.livejournal.com/205365.html)** > > Everyone likes a "hot, relaxing" bath or shower -- or a steam bath. Why do we find it so pleasurable and soothing? To witness the normal reaction to a "hot, relaxing bath," put your pet into a hot tub and see for yourself how soothing it is. Said... ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/44 "2016-11-17T19:02:47Z")
This discussion brings to mind the story (urban legend?) that one enterprising fellow went to the local town sewage treatment plant and got a load of the local sludge to dump on his lawn as cheap fertilizer. Supposedly after the treatment it was no longer a smelly mess, just sludge. The story goes that it was really good fertilizer, but the lawn sprouted wall to wall tomato plants as the numerous seeds went through humans and waste plant and were still viable. I recall many many moons ago seeing the movie upon which was based the British comedy series which was copied into the American series “All In The Family”. The earlier part is set during WWII and the city urban brick row houses apparently still had (brick) outhouses in the tiny back yard rather than actual toilets - assume there was some sort of service to empty them from time to time? (One joke was the Archie Bunker archetype falls into one when he’s sitting there during an air raid.) While the current stories of hygiene problems of the middle ages may be exaggerated, remember in the days before central heating and running water, any bath especially in winter in northern Europe was a major effort; to draw and heat the water, and the risk of bathing in a very cold room - fuel cost a lot of money too. After the dissolutions of the monasteries, I recall a radio program discussing that for a decade England’s largest export was paper, tearing apart the libraries of all the monasteries to “feed the jakes of Europe” as toilet paper. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/45 "2016-11-17T19:17:58Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > In days of old when knights were bold and toilets weren’t invented > They left their load beside the road and walked away contented > [@cochrane](#): > > In days of old when knights were bold and paper wasn’t invented > They wiped their ass with leaves of grass that left them nicely scented > > 😃 I love Shakespeare. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/46 "2016-11-17T19:41:49Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > While the current stories of hygiene problems of the middle ages may be exaggerated, remember in the days before central heating and running water, any bath especially in winter in northern Europe was a major effort; to draw and heat the water, and the risk of bathing in a very cold room - fuel cost a lot of money too. Sponge baths. ---
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/47 "2016-11-17T19:41:59Z")
I recall a Radio Lab episode that said digging trenches for defecation was started as a means of combating the hookworm problem that plagued the warmer States, since the worms could travel only so far without a host before they die. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/48 "2016-11-17T23:11:16Z")
> [@Waxwinged](#): > > I just finished reading a rather interesting book, (“The Big Necessity: The Unmentionable World of Human Waste and Why It Matters.” by Rose Baker) … Just to mention that the book is by Rose George, not Baker - I met her a few years ago and she told a bit about it. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/49 "2016-11-17T23:35:51Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > …and the risk of bathing in a very cold room :dubious: What is the risk of bathing in a very cold room? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/50 "2016-11-17T23:38:51Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > :dubious: What is the risk of bathing in a very cold room? Hypothermia. ---
**Author:** ![MoodIndigo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@MoodIndigo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoodIndigo1)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/51 "2016-11-17T23:53:40Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Canada started trying to impose sewage treatment on its relatively modern cities over the last few decades. While sewage treatment is pretty routine (just like the USA) there are/were some cities where the older areas did not treat their waste products. Montreal (or was it Quebec City?) just flushed it into the St. Lawrence (helps to have a nice current to haul it away). The CBC did a program about 20 years ago where they flushed a dye pack down a public toilet near the waterfront in Halifax and a few minutes later observed a coloured plume in the harbor. Victoria BC, IIRC still thinks it’s OK to flush some of their waste out to sea; it comes out a pipe deep in the strait south of the island and so is spread a far distance by the tidal current. Then there’s cities like Winnipeg where storm and sewage drains are combined in the old city - so when there’s a seriously heavy downpour, the sewage plant overflows and raw sewage ends up in the river, fortunately downstream from them but not from other communities. > > I suspect some US and European cities have similar issues. Montreal’s largest water treatment plant, the Jean-R. Marcotte treatment plant was only completed in 1974, and “it is the largest in North America, the third largest in the world, and it deals with 50% of all water treated in the province of Quebec.” (from a McGill university article, “Down the Drain”.) ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/52 "2016-11-18T03:20:37Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Common in Australia until the early 20th century. Generally shipped by cesspit cleaners / nightsoil men to, mainly Chinese, market gardeners on the edge of towns. There was also a government sewage farm in Sydney, near Mascot Airport, that experimented with diverting the waste stream to industrial scale farmlands, on the logic that it generated profits and reduced the need to upgrade infrastructure. Yep. I grew up in rural NSW and until the early 1970’s we had the old outhouse, a wooden shack with a toilet seat over a bucket that was collected by someone from the local council once or twice a week. Used to get pretty ripe in summer after a few days in the hot sun. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/53 "2016-11-18T11:32:48Z")
Bottom line - when and where human waste has been a resource for agriculture or industry no, open defecation was not and is not the norm, the stuff is collected and carted away for various uses. And a surprising number of societies, both ancient and modern, have found human and animal waste too valuable to simply waste by throwing it away. ---
**Author:** ![Waxwinged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@Waxwinged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waxwinged)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/54 "2016-11-18T14:56:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Bottom line - when and where human waste has been a resource for agriculture or industry no, open defecation was not and is not the norm, the stuff is collected and carted away for various uses. And a surprising number of societies, both ancient and modern, have found human and animal waste too valuable to simply waste by throwing it away. Thank you! That answers the original question perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/55 "2016-11-18T17:13:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes, urine was very useful for tanning (as was dog muck. Which is a polite way to say “shit”). In Victorian London, and probably a lot of other places as well, the people who collected dog feces were called [pure finders](http://www.digitaldickens.com/content.php?id=100), ‘pure’ being the odd term for dog shit used at the time: > [@](#): > > From “London Labour and the London Poor” by Henry Mayhew, 1851 > > ‘Dogs’ dung is called “Pure,” from its cleansing and purifying properties. > > 'The name of “Pure-finders,” however, has been applied to the men engaged in collecting dogs’dung from the public streets only, within the last 20 or 30 years. Previous to this period there appears to have been no men engaged in the business, old women alone gathered the substance, and they were known by the name of “bunters,” which signifies properly gatherers of rags; and thus plainly intimates that the rag-gatherers originally added the collecting of “Pure” to their original and proper vocation. Hence it appears that the bone-grubbers, rag-gatherers, and pure-finders, constituted formerly but one class of people, and even now they have, as I have stated, kindred characteristics. > > ‘The pure-finders meet with a ready market for all the dogs’–dung they are able to collect, at the nume- rous tanyards in Bermondsey, where they sell it by the stable-bucket full, and get from 8 d. to 10 d. per bucket, and sometimes 1 s. and 1 s. 2 d. for it, according to its quality. The “dry limy-looking sort” fetches the highest price at some yards, as it is found to possess more of the alkaline, or purifying properties; but others are found to prefer the dark moist quality. Strange as it may appear, the preference for a particular kind has suggested to the finders of Pure the idea of adulterating it to a very considerable extent; this is effected by means of mortar broken away from old walls, and mixed up with the whole mass, which it closely resembles; in some cases, however, the mortar is rolled into small balls similar to those found. Hence it would appear, that there is no business or trade, however insignificant or contemptible, without its own peculiar and appropriate tricks. > > [snip] > > 'The pure-finder may at once be distinguished from the bone-grubber and rag-gatherer; the latter, as I have before mentioned, carries a bag, and usually a stick armed with a spike, while he is most frequently to be met with in back streets, narrow lanes, yards and other places, where dust and rubbish are likely to be thrown out from the adjacent houses. The pure-finder, on the contrary, is often found in the open streets, as dogs wander where they like. The pure-finders always carry a handle basket, generally with a cover, to hide the contents, and have their right hand covered with a black leather glove; many of them, however, dispense with the glove, as they say it is much easier to wash their hands than to keep the glove fit for use. The women generally have a large pocket for the reception of such rags as they may chance to fall in with, but they pick up those only of the very best quality, and will not go out of their way to search even for them. Thus equipped they may be seen pursuing their avocation in almost every street in and about London, excepting such streets as are now cleansed by the “street orderlies,” of whom the pure-finders grievously complain, as being an unwarrantable interference with the privileges of their class. The term “Dalit” swims unbidden into view… Anyway, the cart of time grinds ever onward, bearing the juggernaut Progress, heedless of what forms of employment get sacrificed under its mighty wheels. One can only wonder what trades will be next to be sacrificed. Maybe telemarketer. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/56 "2016-11-18T17:39:53Z")
If we’re going on to the Animal Kingdom… The streets of every European town, including Britain and no doubt all places east of Suez, from Roman times on, were _covered_ in horse droppings — because: a/ that was the only transport. b/ there were more horses than you can imagine. c/ horses felt open defecation was the norm. In Britain and Europe small boys, and others, would dart out with buckets \* to take it for the garden — you were plumb out of luck if you had no garden; in the Far East, someone would be making a profit on each scoop; and in the Middle East they probably stared at it apathetically. Did I mention they had lots and lots of flies east of ( and including ) Suez ? I don’t know if they did anything particular in America to clear the way. - I was told of this by an elderly man who had done it in 1920s London as a small boy. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/57 "2016-11-18T17:47:29Z")
Edit: when say only transport, that included mules, donkeys, oxen, camels etc. The melody may alter, but the song remains the same. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/58 "2016-11-18T17:57:30Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > :dubious: What is the risk of bathing in a very cold room? Not everyone is Finnish and enjoys rolling in the snow after a nice sauna. Buildings that are poorly sealed, with crappy heating from an open fireplace are not the best environment for getting naked and wet. In the good old days, every log had to be chopped and hauled by hand; maybe rich people could afford warm rooms and warm baths, and those who lived near big forests. I imagine fuel was a premium item in cities. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/59 "2016-11-18T18:02:55Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > If we’re going on to the Animal Kingdom… > > The streets of every European town, including Britain and no doubt all places east of Suez, from Roman times on, were _covered_ in horse droppings — because: > > a/ that was the only transport. > > b/ there were more horses than you can imagine. > > c/ horses felt open defecation was the norm. > In Britain and Europe small boys, and others, would dart out with buckets \* to take it for the garden — you were plumb out of luck if you had no garden; in the Far East, someone would be making a profit on each scoop; and in the Middle East they probably stared at it apathetically. Did I mention they had lots and lots of flies east of ( and including ) Suez ? > I don’t know if they did anything particular in America to clear the way. > > - I was told of this by an elderly man who had done it in 1920s London as a small boy. Don’t forget in some settings, especially Europe and the far East, regular rains would help wash away the problem; whereas in some less precipitous locales, it would pile up. (Horses, as nomadic wanderers without “nests” or other such lair, did not have a need for controlling their output to avoid soiling their home. As prey rather than carnivore stalkers, there was also no evolutionary need to hold it in to avoid creating a smell while stalking. As I understood it, this “nesting” is the distinction that determines what animals can be housebroken.) ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156/60 "2016-11-18T20:01:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You let urine sit for a bit and age, then it’s useful for degreasing/cleaning and has some bleaching effect well as softening hides during the tanning process. Allowed to age, the urea in urine turns into ammonia, which is still used for cleaning purposes today. It was also used while dying fabric, and for awhile a component of urine was extracted for gunpowder manufacture. > > So piss used to be an important raw material. Supposedly, in ancient Rome textile and tanning operations used to provide pots for the public to piss in as a means of obtaining the raw material. I learned about this from Terry Pratchett’s Discworld novel, The Truth. Harry King, “the King of the Golden River”, makes a fortune in this way. Here’s a link to a wiki about his character: [http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Harry\_King](http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Harry_King) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-open-defecation-the-norm-across-the-world-before-the-1800s/772156.md?page=4)