# Was Pope Pius XII actually passive in the holocaust? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798 "2009-05-08T22:23:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/1 "2009-05-08T22:23:15Z")
[http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0004.html](http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0004.html) SR. MARGHERITA MARCHIONE argues that he ordered the church to provide sanctuary for any Jew who knocked on the door in Italy. > [@](#): > > Opening the cloister > > Since this encounter, I’ve been striving to write from my heart a “manifesto” for justice. Pope Pius XII, through ecclesiastical channels, instructed priests and nuns to shelter any Jew who knocked on their doors. When I learned about this, and about the Vatican’s network to provide false identification papers for Jews and other refugees, I decided to publish these facts. > > For several years Pope Pius XII did not leave the Vatican, where he was concealing many Jews. Every corner of his estate at Castelgandolfo, his summer home, also was occupied by them. According to Father Robert A. Graham, S.J., the editor of World War II Vatican documents, word spread from the Vatican for Religious to open the doors of convents and monasteries to protect Jews. Directives were only given orally because, under the German occupation, all archives were subject to Gestapo raids. > > This was an extraordinary Vatican command because until this time convents and monasteries were considered cloistered. Very strict regulations existed that prohibited the laity from entering these cloistered areas. In those days one’s own parents were nor allowed to enter the private quarters of a convent or monastery. Neither was anyone else. However, when Jews and other refugees needed sanctuary, the regulations were suspended. > > For fifty years, books have been published, films have been produced, lectures have been given, but few people have defended Pope Pius XII. In his time, people from different parts of the world insisted that the pope publicly condemn the Nazis. But to the very end, Pius XII was convinced that, should he denounce Hitler, there would be serious and devastating retaliation. > > Evidence shows that he was right. Bishop Jean Bernard of Luxembourg, an inmate of Dachau from February 1941 to August 1942, declared that “whenever protests were made, treatment of prisoners worsened immediately.” Because of the pope’s prudence and courage, many more lives were saved. If Pope Pius XII had protested, not only would he have been unsuccessful in halting the destruction, but he might have caused a great deal of additional damage to the thousands of Jews hidden in the Vatican, in convents and monasteries, as well as to the Church in German-occupied Europe. Nazi policy sought the extermination not only of Jews but of certain non-Jewish peoples as well. The thousands of Jews hidden in convents and monasteries would have been sent to concentration camps along with those who were trying to save them. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/2 "2009-05-09T01:19:51Z")
[Here’s an excellent article presenting the facts about the Catholic Church during the Holocaust.](http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a014.html) The record is clear: tens of thousands of lives saved at great risk. After the war, many prominent Jews came forward to thank Pope Pius XII for what he had done during the war. The above article attributes the false beliefs about the church during that period to a play by Rolf Hochhuth, a German writer who may have had ties to communism. I’m not sure if the entire blame can be laid on him, however. There is rarely a shortage of anti-Catholic propaganda anywhere. And I suppose now is as good a time as any to mention that thousands of Catholics were sent to the gas chambers for being Catholic, a fact which somehow gets omitted from many accounts of the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/3 "2009-05-09T02:41:14Z")
I think the question is something of a strawman. I doubt many people seriously claim that the Pope did nothing in response to the Holocaust. The question is whether the actions he took were proportionate to the enormity of the evil being committed. I’ll admit my personal opinion is that the answer is no, the Pope didn’t do enough. I’ll concede that taking a serious stand would have been a risk for him but that’s the responsibility you assume when you accept the job as moral leader and God’s representative on Earth. You’re not supposed to duck the tough calls. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/4 "2009-05-09T03:08:08Z")
And many of those who were aided by the Vatican during WWII were helped by [Hugh O’Flaherty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty). Iwould argue that he did far more than Pius. It seems like he did more than many…but not nearly as much as he should have. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/5 "2009-05-09T04:03:46Z")
well, “[Mit Brenneder Sorge](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge)” was a clear condemnation. [This article](http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=100) poitns to the fact that , in many cases, it was the affected catholics themselves who asked the Pope to keep a lower proifle. [This other article](http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html), even mention that the New York Times said on Dec 25 1941 “_The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas… he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all… the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism… he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace_.” Could he have done more? Definitely. Did he do too little? No. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/6 "2009-05-09T04:46:37Z")
Catholics openly declaring their support for the Pope? Astonishing! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/7 "2009-05-09T06:11:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And many of those who were aided by the Vatican during WWII were helped by [Hugh O’Flaherty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty). Iwould argue that he did far more than Pius. Wasn’t a lot of what O’Flaherty did with Pius’s knowledge and approval? I mean, he couldn’t have done that sort of stuff without it. I think this question has to be divided into several. 1. What the Pope could practicably have done in regards to the holocaust 2. What he morally had the responsibility to do. 3. What he actually did do. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/8 "2009-05-09T16:13:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the question is something of a strawman. I doubt many people seriously claim that the Pope did nothing in response to the Holocaust. The question is whether the actions he took were proportionate to the enormity of the evil being committed. > > I’ll admit my personal opinion is that the answer is no, the Pope didn’t do enough. I’ll concede that taking a serious stand would have been a risk for him but that’s the responsibility you assume when you accept the job as moral leader and God’s representative on Earth. You’re not supposed to duck the tough calls. Well the argument put forth by Sr. Marchione is that it would have been WORSE for the people he spoke out for on their behalf if he had done that. They wouldn’t have been able to save the people that they did save. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/9 "2009-05-09T16:14:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And many of those who were aided by the Vatican during WWII were helped by [Hugh O’Flaherty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O%27Flaherty). Iwould argue that he did far more than Pius. > > It seems like he did more than many…but not nearly as much as he should have. Would you care to speculate as to what he ‘should’ have done? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/10 "2009-05-09T16:16:47Z")
It basically seems like Pius XII gets a lot of crap from Jews even though he was one of the best friends they had in the holocaust. ‘He didn’t do enough.’, though it seems like he did more than just about anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/11 "2009-05-09T16:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Well the argument put forth by Sr. Marchione is that it would have been WORSE for the people he spoke out for on their behalf if he had done that. They wouldn’t have been able to save the people that they did save. And as I pointed out, a Catholic nun may not be an unbiased commentator on this issue. Her claim is that thousands of people were saved by the Pope’s actions during the war. That’s probably true. But keep in mind that millions of people were killed. A more active stand by Pius might have endangered some of the thousands he protected. But it might also have saved some of the millions who died. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/12 "2009-05-09T16:29:28Z")
> [@](#): > > It basically seems like Pius XII gets a lot of crap from Jews even though he was one of the best friends they had in the holocaust. ‘He didn’t do enough.’, though it seems like he did more than just about anyone else. This is just silly. There were plenty of people who were actively resisting the Nazis. Hell, Joseph Stalin saved more Jews than Pius did (admittedly to further his own purposes). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/13 "2009-05-09T16:46:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And as I pointed out, a Catholic nun may not be an unbiased commentator on this issue. Yes, and that’s an ad hominem, and has no place in the discussion. IMO. > [@](#): > > Her claim is that thousands of people were saved by the Pope’s actions during the war. That’s probably true. But keep in mind that millions of people were killed. A more active stand by Pius might have endangered some of the thousands he protected. But it might also have saved some of the millions who died. No one has specified what that should be? It’s been pointed out that he: 1. Condemned Nazism early. 2. He condemned anti-semitism early. 3. He lifted the cloister in an unprecedented act to save Jews. How many divisions does the Pope have? -Joseph Stalin ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/14 "2009-05-09T16:49:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This is just silly. There were plenty of people who were actively resisting the Nazis. Hell, Joseph Stalin saved more Jews than Pius did (admittedly to further his own purposes). And he killed plenty himself. This is ridiculous. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/15 "2009-05-09T16:59:43Z")
I wouldn’t say that Pius XII, personally, did more than a lot of other people. Individual diplomats such as Raoul Wallenberg and the Japanese Consul in Lithuania had greater personal impact in terms of saving the lives of Jews, but then again they were in a position to provide documents and safe passage in a way the Pope may not have been. He seems to have had an inconsistent attitude towards the situation, sometimes extending a hand, sometimes remaining ‘neutral’. He spoke out against the racial laws in Italy, but told Vichy that theirs were OK as long as administered with ‘charity’, whatever that means. He was in a tough spot. He no doubt could have done more, and chose not to, probably out of practical concern, and concern more for Catholics than for Jews. Whilst that may be disappointing to me, it doesn’t make him evil. I resent the implication that ‘Jews’ ignore the Catholics killed. In any discussion of the Holocaust it is always stated that ‘the Jews’ should spend time acknowledging the non-Jews killed, and in my experience most of the time this is done. But I’m not sure why ‘the Jews’ are responsible for bringing it up every time and spending lots of time talking about it. I am pleased that now there is much more discussion of those who did help, from all countries, races and creeds. Focussing on those who did right in the face of extreme pressure to allow evil – people like Hugh O’Flaherty (or Karol Wotyla for that matter) – is a good thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/16 "2009-05-09T17:08:52Z")
**DaphneBlack** The ‘he should have done more’ meme seems to me to be rather backhanded. It downplays what he DID do, and also doesn’t recognize that there are those who downright villify and hate him as though he had some magical power over Hitler that he didn’t exercise. He’s the Pope of the Catholic church not the Pope of Neo-Teutonic Pagan Nationalism. Hugh O’Flaherty and Karol Wojtyla were not in the same position, they didn’t have a responsibility to the whole of Catholicism that the Pope had. It just strikes me as downright unfair. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/17 "2009-05-09T17:18:11Z")
I didn’t say he _should_ have done more, I said he _could_ have done more. Which is certainly true. I know there are those who hate him. That’s not really appropriate, in my opinion, but it doesn’t change what happened. I think it’s possible to point out that that is perhaps not fair without invalidating the point that his chosen actions were inconsistent, and sometimes disappointing. His responsibility for the whole of Catholicism is the point I think. If he had come out more strongly than he did – perhaps more strongly than anyone did – he _might_ have been able to change things for the better. That he chose not to use all of his resources to fight Nazism is understandable to me, but disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/18 "2009-05-09T17:32:27Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > I didn’t say he _should_ have done more, I said he _could_ have done more. Which is certainly true. People keep saying that, but they don’t say what he _could_ have done. > [@](#): > > I know there are those who hate him. That’s not really appropriate, in my opinion, but it doesn’t change what happened. I think it’s possible to point out that that is perhaps not fair without invalidating the point that his chosen actions were inconsistent, and sometimes disappointing. Maybe. Again: How many divisions does the Pope have? -Joe Stalin > [@](#): > > His responsibility for the whole of Catholicism is the point I think. If he had come out more strongly than he did – perhaps more strongly than anyone did – he _might_ have been able to change things for the better. That he chose not to use all of his resources to fight Nazism is understandable to me, but disappointing. That’s pure speculation, no one as yet has put forward an argument that tells me why they believe this is true. Just that they do. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/19 "2009-05-09T18:03:43Z")
What more could he have done? He could have forcefully and consistently condemned what the Nazis were up to, and been specific about it. He could have told Catholics to resist the Nazis with all their might. Again, I understand why he did not, but he certainly could have. Why did he speak out against the Italian laws, but say the Vichy laws were fine? I know the Pope had no army. I’m not sure he would have been able to change things. I know it’s speculative whether he could have changed anything, because he chose to remain neutral. If he hadn’t, things would certainly have been different, though. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798/20 "2009-05-09T18:20:57Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > What more could he have done? He could have forcefully and consistently condemned what the Nazis were up to, and been specific about it. He could have told Catholics to resist the Nazis with all their might. Again, I understand why he did not, but he certainly could have. Yes, I suppose he could have done that. > [@](#): > > Why did he speak out against the Italian laws, but say the Vichy laws were fine? I don’t know, maybe he worked within the constraints that the facts on the ground in each place imposed. > [@](#): > > I know the Pope had no army. I’m not sure he would have been able to change things. I know it’s speculative whether he could have changed anything, because he chose to remain neutral. If he hadn’t, things would certainly have been different, though. Yes, things would have been different, but there was also the fact that it was a lot of competing nationalism going on, and the reality is there were no ‘good guys’ despite what historical revisionism tells us. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, and Churchill were all proven megalomaniacal and murderous tyrants before the war began. That’s one of the great travesties of the 20/20 hindsight, everyone looks at it like the evil was cut and dry Nazis = Gravest evil the world has ever known, but at the time that wasn’t clear, and hell it’s not even as clear now as people like to make it out to be. The Communists were just as bad if not worse than the Nazis, and the British Imperialists while not AS bad were pretty much the archetype of nasty authoritarian rule. The United States was just through its own genocide within living memory. So there are a lot of balance of power issues at play regarding a bunch of nasty murderous regimes pointed at each other. The Holocaust tends to single the Nazis out as the greatest of all evils, but the reality is anti-semitism in Europe was rampant from one end to the other. How would history view Pius XII if he had told the Catholics to resist the Nazis and then it brought Communist rule even farther into Western Europe? If he also asked them to resist that how would history view him as being the Pope who breathed new life into the church militant? If Catholics organized to fight the Nazis who is to say that the Catholics wouldn’t have marched across Europe in the name of the church? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-pope-pius-xii-actually-passive-in-the-holocaust/495798.md?page=2)