# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/1 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")
In my humble opinion Primordial man was not conscious as we are conscious, they seemed to only exist with a very high level of instinct. Which is why I think they never really progressed a whole lot in so many millions of years, and never became civilized. This lack of productive consciousness, would then explain why humanity, after Adam, just took off in an entirely different direction and civilization flourished soon after. It explains how Adam was " The first man with Consciousness." Or the first human created in God’s image. That image is consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/2 "2014-08-10T17:37:21Z")
“Primordial” as in “primordial soup”? How far back are we talking? And if you’re talking people before Adam, you’ll have to battle religious dogma on two fronts. It would seem hard to have language and no consciousness, so I’d say that the two came about around the same time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/3 "2014-08-10T17:54:27Z")
You need to define “Primordial Man”, and stop using “Adam” if you’re trying to engage in a scientific discussion. At some level, your idea is not new: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind](http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407693160&sr=1-1&keywords=the+origin+of+consciousness+in+the+breakdown+of+the+bicameral+mind), but this is a fringe view. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/4 "2014-08-10T18:12:36Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > In my humble opinion Primordial man was not conscious as we are conscious, they seemed to only exist with a very high level of instinct. Which is why I think they never really progressed a whole lot in so many millions of years, and never became civilized. This lack of productive consciousness, would then explain why humanity, after Adam, just took off in an entirely different direction and civilization flourished soon after. It explains how Adam was " The first man with Consciousness." Or the first human created in God’s image. That image is consciousness. The best evidence we have is that about 300,000 years ago Homo Heidelbergensis was roaming the earth. There is convincing evidence that they were the first to bury their dead. Just about then also, there is powerful evidence that humans controlled fire 125,000 years ago, (some evidence is there to suggest human ancestors used fire 300,000 years ago and even earlier!) Now the problem is this: if we are only stuck with the bible then about 8000 years ago god allegedly decided to give us a new gift. But it is really a little bit late compared to what Prometheus did. I see as very unlikely that consciousness was not there for humanity until the 3000th generation after they began to have an idea of what could be there after death and how to plan ahead to make and keep fire going. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/5 "2014-08-10T18:18:06Z")
Adam ate a psychedelic mushroom, discovered his own intellect as an individual, and mankind suffered from thence due to consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/6 "2014-08-10T18:45:08Z")
The [Toba Catastrophe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_event) killed off all the stupid humans. They’re beginning to grow back, though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/7 "2014-08-10T18:47:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The best evidence we have is that about 300,000 years ago Homo Heidelbergensis was roaming the earth. 600,000 years ago. > [@](#): > > There is convincing evidence that they were the first to bury their dead. This is pretty controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/8 "2014-08-10T18:53:52Z")
Humans are not the only animals with consciousness. > **[Animal consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness)** > > Animal consciousness, or animal awareness, is the quality or state of self-awareness within a non-human animal, or of being aware of an external object or something within itself. In humans, consciousness has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, qualia, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind. Despite the difficulty in definition, many philosophers believe there is a broadly shared underly The t... ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/9 "2014-08-10T18:59:35Z")
I have a cat who is occasionally conscious. Not much. Maybe 3 hours a day. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/10 "2014-08-10T19:26:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > 600,000 years ago. I was going for the more recent dates of their range, just to be conservative. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is pretty controversial. Yes, but it had to start somewhere, as the cite they used reports: > **[BBC - Science & Nature - The evolution of man](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/human/human_evolution/first_europeans1.shtml)** > > Articles about the evolution of man > [@](#): > > These narrow glimpses into the mind and everyday life of heidelbergensis are at once fascinating and frustrating. But this early human was undoubtedly developing a complex mind. Once this boundary had been reached, there was no turning back. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/11 "2014-08-10T21:01:43Z")
People with a modern education are more aware of their cosmos. They “see” things that an uneducated person doesn’t see at all. Education broadens one’s consciousness. (Just as one example, there really are people, even in modern, educated society, who deny that the Moon is visible in the daytime!) In pre-civilization times, no one had the kind of education that widens conscious awareness of the world. They lived, as Carl Sagan said, in a demon-haunted world, where they spent a lot of time worrying about spirits, ghosts, and so on. Sure, they had a lot of knowledge – but it was mostly case-by-case data, without underlying rules. The very concept of “rules of nature” was unknown. I would say that, even today, a guy who has only a third-grade education isn’t as fully conscious as a guy who has some college under his belt. (There’s also hour-to-hour differences. We spend a lot of time quietly zoned. Using only ten per cent of our brains – so to speak! 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/12 "2014-08-10T21:46:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to define “Primordial Man”, and stop using “Adam” if you’re trying to engage in a scientific discussion. At some level, your idea is not new: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind](http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407693160&sr=1-1&keywords=the+origin+of+consciousness+in+the+breakdown+of+the+bicameral+mind), but this is a fringe view. Is it? Shame, as it is a fantastic read and a very intriguing theory. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/13 "2014-08-10T21:50:10Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > Is it? Shame, as it is a fantastic read and a very intriguing theory. Hypothesis. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/14 "2014-08-10T22:13:06Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > Is it? Shame, as it is a fantastic read and a very intriguing theory. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Hypothesis. 😉 I sit corrected! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/15 "2014-08-11T01:27:17Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I have a cat who is occasionally conscious. Not much. Maybe 3 hours a day. Sounds like a high-brow feline doing a lot of thinking. Mine rises to consciousness for a few moments in order to eat then succumbs to the primordial state. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/16 "2014-08-11T03:14:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > At some level, your idea is not new: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind](http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407693160&sr=1-1&keywords=the+origin+of+consciousness+in+the+breakdown+of+the+bicameral+mind), but this is a fringe view. My brother gave me that book. Then he died, so I didn’t have to read it. I’m not sure that was his plan, but the Universe works in mysterious ways, and who am I to question it? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/17 "2014-08-11T03:33:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to define “Primordial Man”, and stop using “Adam” if you’re trying to engage in a scientific discussion. At some level, your idea is not new: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind](http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407693160&sr=1-1&keywords=the+origin+of+consciousness+in+the+breakdown+of+the+bicameral+mind), but this is a fringe view. I think Julian Jaynes book on consciousness is excellent, in fact I developed my theory based on some of his; and this is just theory, I cannot prove it. But the bible refers to Adam as " The First man", and we know from archaeology and science that could not be true; so my theory is that he was simply the first man with Consciousness; or a full working one. The first man created in God’s image, which is consciousness; but that would mean, if that much is true, that humans before Adam, just had no consciousness, or none as developed as humans after Adam. Jaynes proved that most of what we do, even now, we do it unconsciously; so its really no far reach to imagine a whole race of unconscious humans doing simple everyday things. In example, we can drive a car, while looking in the mirror and combing our hair, while steering the wheel, while looking at the road, while being sure not to hit anything around you, while listening to music, while talking on the phone, while applying the brakes, while keeping your speed in mind, while watching other traffic; and most of those things, we do unconsciously. So humans can do a lot, and not be conscious of doing it, or not really needing to be conscious to do them. If you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/18 "2014-08-11T03:39:50Z")
What you say here is **not** a theory. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/19 "2014-08-11T03:54:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to define “Primordial Man”, and stop using “Adam” if you’re trying to engage in a scientific discussion. At some level, your idea is not new: [The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind](http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Consciousness-Breakdown-Bicameral-Mind/dp/0618057072/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1407693160&sr=1-1&keywords=the+origin+of+consciousness+in+the+breakdown+of+the+bicameral+mind), but this is a fringe view. > [@Uniqueorn](#): > > Is it? Shame, as it is a fantastic read and a very intriguing theory. Mrs. Cretin and I read that book when it was first published, and I’m pleasantly surprised to see it being referred to 38 years later. FWIW we still think Jaynes was right. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/20 "2014-08-11T06:03:22Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Mrs. Cretin and I read that book when it was first published, and I’m pleasantly surprised to see it being referred to 38 years later. FWIW we still think Jaynes was right. I think he was right on target in many things he expressed in that book. I was working at a hospital 5 years ago and a doctor moved out of his office and left that book among his garbage. It was a VERY challenging read, because he writes like an intellectual. And I am not an intellectual; tuff read for me. But it opened new trains of thought in me. Broadened my consciousness. Even helped me understand a few biblical mysteries, although he did not get into that kind of thing. And I think that is good, for something to pry open sections of your consciousness and spring a spectrum of new birth. Which is why I like the bible, it does that to me as well. There has to be a reason why Primordial man did not grow in leaps and bounds; just stayed basically stagnant for millions of years; showing limited pivots in their unusual history. And I think a lack of consciousness explains that better than any other reason I am aware of. Its as if they were dormant; basic elementals. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=2)