# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/181 "2014-08-13T17:15:14Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > When you ask “Was primordial man conscious?”, what do you mean? If we could travel back in time, what would you be looking for that would tell you that whatever species of human we’re looking at is conscious but its ancestor 1000 years ago was not? By “First Man” he means “Adam” from the Bible, so I guess “primordial man” is some sort of proto-human the Bible doesn’t talk about. He is trying to shoehorn science into the Bible and vice-versa. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/182 "2014-08-13T17:16:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The next time you need a house built, hire an architect that uses her imagination instead of measurements to draw up the plans for your house and pick out what materials to use. Why not toss all your scientifically designed meds out the window and let your imagination determine how best to treat illnesses? Look at how much time we could save in the classroom if we just told the kids to imagine what history was like back then, and to just imagine what the correct answers are in math, science and geography! Imagine the advances in the computer field when we throw all that pesky reality out the window and just imagine! :dubious: Again, what makes your reality better than mine? What gives you the determining factor to label my reality as imagination? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/183 "2014-08-13T17:22:40Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > When you ask “Was primordial man conscious?”, what do you mean? If we could travel back in time, what would you be looking for that would tell you that whatever species of human we’re looking at is conscious but its ancestor 1000 years ago was not? I would look at their language, and their; Agriculture Education Science Transportation Mathmatics Building abilities Their relations with other groups present Their beliefs Their weapons Their ability to write Their governments Their recreation Their technology Their mental state of being. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/184 "2014-08-13T17:33:34Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I would look at their language, and their; > > Agriculture > > Education > > Science > > Transportation > > Mathmatics > > Building abilities > > Their relations with other groups present > > Their beliefs > > Their weapons > > Their ability to write > > Their governments > > Their recreation > > Their technology > > Their mental state of being. The fact that you think that a people would have to reach some arbitrary level in each and every one of these categories before you would consider them to be “conscious” shows that you are totally unqualified to even be discussing the subject. You’ve seemed to have created a personal definition of the word to suit a personal religious idea you have about some divinity inspiring a mythological “first man”. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/185 "2014-08-13T17:38:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The fact that you think that a people would have to reach some arbitrary level in each and every one of these categories before you would consider them to be “conscious” shows that you are totally unqualified to even be discussing the subject. You’ve seemed to have created a personal definition of the word to suit a personal religious idea you have about some divinity inspiring a mythological “first man”. So are you suggesting that you are qualified to tell me I am not qualified? Why do you always speak in terms that put me down and lift yourself up? Why do you seem to want conversations to involve " Only Professionals", as if you are one yourself? Do I need a degree in a subject to start a thread on that subject? You seem to have created this " Professional world all of your own." Or is it just a smoke screen that you use to fight something that you sense is a threat? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/186 "2014-08-13T17:40:11Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > When you ask “Was primordial man conscious?”, what do you mean? If we could travel back in time, what would you be looking for that would tell you that whatever species of human we’re looking at is conscious but its ancestor 1000 years ago was not? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > By “First Man” he means “Adam” from the Bible, so I guess “primordial man” is some sort of proto-human the Bible doesn’t talk about. He is trying to shoehorn science into the Bible and vice-versa. If you read the thread, you’ll see it’s complete circular reasoning. “Primordial Man” is defined as man prior to consciousness. And as if it happened all at once. Boom! Consciousness. But that’s no problem because consciousness is “given”. It can’t be created out of nothing, so it has to be given by another consciousness. How the first consciousness came into being is magic. None of this is religious, although it’s based on The Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/187 "2014-08-13T17:44:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By “First Man” he means “Adam” from the Bible, so I guess “primordial man” is some sort of proto-human the Bible doesn’t talk about. He is trying to shoehorn science into the Bible and vice-versa. We’ll burn that bridge when we come to it. > [@Mickiel](#): > > I would look at their language, and their; > > [snip] > > Their mental state of being. Ok, so you’ve identified a lot of categories. How are you establishing baselines for these in terms of consciousness? Would a hypothetical primordial man need to tick every box or is there a percentage we’re looking for? Take language for example. What about a language determines consciousness? Function words? Tenses and aspects? Identification of abstract concepts? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/188 "2014-08-13T17:48:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you read the thread, you’ll see it’s complete circular reasoning. “Primordial Man” is defined as man prior to consciousness. And as if it happened all at once. Boom! Consciousness. But that’s no problem because consciousness is “given”. It can’t be created out of nothing, so it has to be given by another consciousness. How the first consciousness came into being is magic. None of this is religious, although it’s based on The Bible. And the fact that the first conscious dude was named “Adam” was just a coincidence. BTW, I see now that he has credited me with creating the whole “Professional Field”, but I couldn’t have done it without you, **John Mace** , so from now on we’ll share the credit(my name first, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/189 "2014-08-13T17:52:50Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > We’ll burn that bridge when we come to it. > > Ok, so you’ve identified a lot of categories. How are you establishing baselines for these in terms of consciousness? Would a hypothetical primordial man need to tick every box or is there a percentage we’re looking for? Take language for example. What about a language determines consciousness? Function words? Tenses and aspects? Identification of abstract concepts? All of those aspects of language, and the ability to have them all at once, is a sign of consciousness. The more concepts being incorporated, the more conscious they are; the less being used, the less conscious they would be. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/190 "2014-08-13T17:58:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the fact that the first conscious dude was named “Adam” was just a coincidence. > BTW, I see now that he has credited me with creating the whole “Professional Field”, but I couldn’t have done it without you, **John Mace** , so from now on we’ll share the credit(my name first, of course). That religious chip you got on your shoulder, has now worked its way into your unconscious being; and become a serious part of you. Almost borderlines a hatred, you are so against the bible and spirituality, that you go after it with a fever; as if your fever can help the situation; Reminds me of a bully who fights when the fight is over; just because its habitual. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/191 "2014-08-13T18:02:54Z")
What evidence do you have for the idea that consciousness exists on a continuum rather than in a binary state? Does this mean that as a child acquires their first language they move from a state of nonconsciousness to full consciousness? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/192 "2014-08-13T18:26:53Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > What evidence do you have for the idea that consciousness exists on a continuum rather than in a binary state? Does this mean that as a child acquires their first language they move from a state of nonconsciousness to full consciousness? Civilized humans are evidence enough; a current constant evidence; you yourself are evidence. I am evidence, we need no scientific paper work or professional opinion. Children learn language, as they do everythingelse. Consciousness is like a new computer program , and life experiences download the information. The child is already conscious when born, but it becomes more aware as it processes its experiences. It learns as it grows; Primordial humans did not show this kind of progressive graph. They were obviously muted; slow; instinctual; give me 10 babies from any town in any civilized nations; and duplicate the atmosphere and all things during the primordial times, and they would progress in years what it took them millions of years to " Not even obtain." The difference; Consciousness! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/193 "2014-08-13T18:45:01Z")
Amazingly, there are groups of people alive today who are not “conscious”. What luck!! We can study them to understand why they lack consciousness. Of course, that will be a huge surprise to them, but they are fortunate they have us around to tell them of their unfortunate circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/194 "2014-08-13T19:03:19Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > All of those aspects of language, and the ability to have them all at once, is a sign of consciousness. > [@Mickiel](#): > > The child is already conscious when born, but it becomes more aware as it processes its experiences. So consciousness is possible without language? If so, how can you determine whether a languageless society is conscious or not? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/195 "2014-08-13T19:07:16Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Civilized humans are evidence enough; a current constant evidence; you yourself are evidence. I am evidence, we need no scientific paper work or professional opinion. This is just classic Nutcase Pretending To Be Discussing Rationally. At some point, after pressing and pressing, they have to confront the simple, obvious fact that they cannot live up to the standards of evidence required for real science. Then we get to the real point - “It’s just OBVIOUS!! You HAVE to agree with me! Just because I REALLY REALLY WANT IT TO BE TRUE!!!” sprinkled with a heaping helping of “evidence doesn’t matter when I’m so obviously RIGHT!!” This is often followed up with either insults or complaints about free speech. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/196 "2014-08-13T19:23:09Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Okay, how about the very first man? The first man to walk this earth. Does anyone misunderstand that? Can we say that " The first man" is a clear statement; no tricks, no confusion; no other possible definitions; just the very first human. > > Will that pass this unusual scrutiny? How do you define him? How do we distinguish him from his father or his son? Species aren’t sets with razor-sharp mathematical boundaries. Species evolve over large periods of time, incorporating large numbers of very small genetic changes. In mathematics, you could say, yes, there has to have been “the first man.” But in biology, the term doesn’t have any meaning. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/197 "2014-08-13T19:26:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How do you define him? How do we distinguish him from his father or his son? > > Species aren’t sets with razor-sharp mathematical boundaries. Species evolve over large periods of time, incorporating large numbers of very small genetic changes. > > In mathematics, you could say, yes, there has to have been “the first man.” But in biology, the term doesn’t have any meaning. Well, you’re obviously not taking magic into account. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/198 "2014-08-13T19:26:55Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > All of those aspects of language, and the ability to have them all at once, is a sign of consciousness. . . . “All at once?” The list of achievements and attainments you wrote all occurred over a period of several thousand years. They were not all invented by “the first man.” ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/199 "2014-08-14T04:32:04Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > So consciousness is possible without language? If so, how can you determine whether a languageless society is conscious or not? You go by the other things on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/200 "2014-08-14T05:00:35Z")
How many things must a society have acquired in order to be determined conscious and how did you come to that figure? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=11)