# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/221 "2014-08-14T18:01:11Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > 😕 > > Please list five historical signs that point to that conclusion. > > I’ll accept three, though. > [@Latro](#): > > I wager this will take a redefining of the term “historical”. > Maybe of “sign” as well. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And “point”. And “this”. Dangit, you guys are telegraphing my moves. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/222 "2014-08-14T18:05:14Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > 1. They never did or accomplished anything significant Shit, I’m not conscious. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/223 "2014-08-14T18:07:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Dangit, you guys are telegraphing my moves. Give me 5 reasons why you have not addressed my 11 reasons; but I’ll accept 3. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/224 "2014-08-14T18:07:52Z")
What **Czarcasm** said. Your examples really don’t demonstrate a knowledge of what “historical” means; do you realize that? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/225 "2014-08-14T18:08:39Z")
Because they’re all nonsense ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/226 "2014-08-14T18:10:32Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Give me 5 reasons why you have not addressed my 11 reasons; but I’ll accept 3. You gave no historical reasons at all. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/227 "2014-08-14T18:11:24Z")
Did we ever get a good description of what the OP defines as primordial or is that still up in the air? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/228 "2014-08-14T18:13:12Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Did we ever get a good description of what the OP defines as primordial or is that still up in the air? Something about “cavemen” and “before Adam”. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/229 "2014-08-14T18:23:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Something about “cavemen” and “before Adam”. But he’s not witnessing :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/230 "2014-08-14T18:58:27Z")
OK, guys, I’ll tackle the big giant elephant of stupid in the room: You say Primordial man never “did” any of these things that we have now. Yet they are our ancestors, so they DID do ALL of those things. And thus turned into us. Yes, I know. You’re going to say, completely without logic or evidence, that God came down and magicked them into us and divinely inspired all of these advances. I would point out that this is a completely circular argument, but that would be an insult to all perfectly good circles out there. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/231 "2014-08-14T19:09:13Z")
I’m still blown away by the contradiction in “I’m not religious” – but God did it. On the other hand, I still think the exact definition of “primordial” isn’t really important. It’s okay to say, “Somewhere between the common ancestor of humans and gorillas, and my Uncle Jasper, but I don’t know exactly where.” As an example, which exact early hominid first deliberately lit a fire, or chipped stone to make a tool? It would be wrong of anyone to demand that I specify exactly when it happened, or where. All we can really know for sure is that it did happen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/232 "2014-08-14T19:22:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m still blown away by the contradiction in “I’m not religious” – but God did it. > > On the other hand, I still think the exact definition of “primordial” isn’t really important. It’s okay to say, “Somewhere between the common ancestor of humans and gorillas, and my Uncle Jasper, but I don’t know exactly where.” > > As an example, which exact early hominid first deliberately lit a fire, or chipped stone to make a tool? It would be wrong of anyone to demand that I specify exactly when it happened, or where. All we can really know for sure is that it did happen. Yes…but when the (silly) premise is that whatever family of human it was wasn’t conscious at all then _BINGO BANGO BONGO IRVING_ one of them gets touched in a special [del]place[/del]way, and acquires total consciousness and a name change to Adam, well, some of us would like to know approximately how far back in history this happened, and perhaps which family of man it happened to. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/233 "2014-08-14T19:25:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes…but when the (silly) premise is that whatever family of human it was wasn’t conscious at all then _BINGO BANGO BONGO IRVING_ one of them gets touched in a special [del]place[/del]way, and acquires total consciousness and a name change to Adam, well, some of us would like to know approximately how far back in history this happened, and perhaps which family of man it happened to. Exactly. Then we can start to address claims like before that time there was no war etc. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/234 "2014-08-14T19:28:10Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > In my humble opinion Primordial man was not conscious as we are conscious, they seemed to only exist with a very high level of instinct. Which is why I think they never really progressed a whole lot in so many millions of years, and never became civilized. This lack of productive consciousness, would then explain why humanity, after Adam, just took off in an entirely different direction and civilization flourished soon after. It explains how Adam was " The first man with Consciousness." Or the first human created in God’s image. That image is consciousness. Adam is a character in myth, no more real than Clark Kent. Consciousness evolved slowly, over many thousands of generation and probably without a sharp dividing line. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/235 "2014-08-14T19:50:19Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Jaynes proved that most of what we do, even now, we do it unconsciously; so its really no far reach to imagine a whole race of unconscious humans doing simple everyday things. > > In example, we can drive a car, while looking in the mirror and combing our hair, while steering the wheel, while looking at the road, while being sure not to hit anything around you, while listening to music, while talking on the phone, while applying the brakes, while keeping your speed in mind, while watching other traffic; and most of those things, we do unconsciously. So humans can do a lot, and not be conscious of doing it, or not really needing to be conscious to do them. > > If you know what I mean. Heck, I’m doing all that while typing this messag ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/236 "2014-08-14T20:06:18Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > 1. Primordial man never became civilized What does civilized mean to you? Where the plains-indians civilized or, the already mentioned, aborigines? Yet they are stone age people that come after your Adam. > [@](#): > > 1. They never progressed in technology There is certainly progress in flintmaking. > [@](#): > > 1. They never had wars, war is a historical sign of consciousness Says you. > **[News - Neolithic Battlefield Unearthed in Wales - Archaeology Magazine](https://archaeology.org/news/2014/08/13/140813-wales-neolithic-battfield-unearthed/)** > > CARDIFF, WALES—While excavating Roman and Iron Age deposits at a hillfort outside Cardiff, archaeologists were \[…\] > [@](#): > > 4.They never wrote books > > 1. Hey, they didn’t know how to write Which aren’t prerequisites for consciousness. > [@](#): > > 1. They never developed a working verbal language Totally grabbed out of your arse. > [@](#): > > 7.They never could build any shelter that could help them survive the ice age Why would they? > [@](#): > > 1. They never had any agriculture of significance Again, nothing to do with consciousness, again c.f. aborigines. > [@](#): > > 9.They never historically developed transportation Nor aeroplanes, the silly buggers. > [@](#): > > 10.They never even developed religion What do you think all those cave paintings are? Besides the burials of Neanderthals with flowers and ochre strongly suggest that as early as _them_ there was the concept of an afterlife. > [@](#): > > 1. They never did or accomplished anything significant Like harnessing fire, inventing tool usage and, hey…farming. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/237 "2014-08-14T20:18:57Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Says you. > [News - Neolithic Battlefield Unearthed in Wales - Archaeology Magazine](http://www.archaeology.org/news/2431-140813-wales-neolithic-battfield-unearthed) Hell, chimps do it. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/21/us-chimps-war-idUSTRE65K48G20100621](http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/21/us-chimps-war-idUSTRE65K48G20100621) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/238 "2014-08-14T22:06:54Z")
This thread might make man unconscious… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/239 "2014-08-15T02:00:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes…but when the (silly) premise is that whatever family of human it was wasn’t conscious at all then _BINGO BANGO BONGO IRVING_ one of them gets touched in a special [del]place[/del]way, and acquires total consciousness and a name change to Adam, well, some of us would like to know approximately how far back in history this happened, and perhaps which family of man it happened to. That’s certainly a problem. “I don’t know” is a valid answer…but it invites the question: how do you know it happened suddenly, then? If he doesn’t know when it happened, then how can he possibly know that it didn’t happen over a long period of time? So…the exact date, in itself, isn’t that big an issue. The big issue is: what is any of this based on? As far as I’ve ever been taught in school, the development of chipped-flint tools developed very slowly, over thousands of years. (A glance at Wikipedia says millions!) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/240 "2014-08-15T02:26:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The big issue is: what is any of this based on? As far as I’ve ever been taught in school, the development of chipped-flint tools developed very slowly, over thousands of years. (A glance at Wikipedia says millions!) This discussion seems based on a distorted and religionized version of the [Great Leap Forward hypothesis of behavioral modernity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward_%28evolution%29#Great_leap_forward). > [@](#): > > There are two main theories regarding when modern human behavior emerged. One theory holds that behavioral modernity occurred as a sudden event some 50 kya (50,000 years ago) in prehistory, possibly as a result of a major genetic mutation or as a result of a biological reorganization of the brain that led to the emergence of modern human natural languages. Proponents of this theory refer to this event as the Great Leap Forward or the Upper Paleolithic Revolution. > > The second theory holds that there was never any single technological or cognitive revolution. Proponents of this view argue that modern human behavior is the result of the gradual accumulation of knowledge, skills and culture occurring over hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=13)