# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/301 "2014-08-15T17:55:30Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > About as much as you know what a Theist is. > > You think religion totally encompasses all theist; you’re simply wrong about that. Just as Atheism is growing, the amount of those who have completely left religion and have a strong belief in God is growing. See, here’s a good example. When **Czarcasm** uses the term "religious’ (and I have faith he’ll correct me if I mischaracterize anything), he means it to refer to _belief_, not practice. For him, there is a distinction between “religion” and “_organized_ religion,” i.e. between faith in the supernatural and the structures that are built around that faith. To him, your belief in God makes you religious, not any adherence to a specific dogma or claimed affiliation. If I’m understanding you correctly, you do not make the same distinction; for you “religion” and “organized religion” are the same, and that “religion” is in and of itself a human construct. You consider faith in the supernatural and belief in Godhead to be intrinsically separate from religion. You can be faithful without being religious, and vice versa. If I have all that correctly, then it’s a matter of semantics. As long as you and he (or you and any of your interlocutors) _understand_ one another’s terminologies, you can communicate. Mind you, it makes things wildly easier if you agree on shared definitions. It’s hard to communicate without a shared language. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/302 "2014-08-15T17:57:54Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > No, Consciousness equals God, not religion or Abraham. See, you are not able to separate God from religion, which is a whole different thread. God has nothing to do with religion, but religion has something to do with God as far as humanity can figure out. Homo Habilis was not conscious in my view, just highly instinctual. I don’t need to define terms, if I could, I need to remove the tendency here to equate God to religion. Then any concept of ‘God’ works, yes? Or do you mean ‘God’ as defined by Jewish/Christian/Islamic religious thought? That’s what the Abrahamic religions are, btw, since you seem a bit confused by that term. So, assuming you mean religion as in any concept of the supernatural, then exactly how do you know that Homo Habilis wasn’t conscious (this is leaving aside your arbitrary and slightly ridiculous assertion that the two are coupled of course)? We don’t know really WHAT H.H. thought or didn’t think wrt religion…it’s pure speculation, and for all we know they worshiped the sun, moon, stars, trees, lighting, thunder or a fallen shoe or gourde, and fought vicious religious wars over who was right or wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/303 "2014-08-15T18:03:33Z")
I am indeed referring to religion demonstrated by a belief in the Bible, and the concepts of both “Adam” and “spirit”, both found in the Bible. This isn’t the first time I have come across people that have been upset at being called “religious”. Usually what I hear is “I don’t have religion. _I_ have a personal relationship with God!”, or some variation thereof, to distinguish themselves from the common religionists out there. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/304 "2014-08-15T18:03:44Z")
> [@andros](#): > > See, here’s a good example. > > When **Czarcasm** uses the term "religious’ (and I have faith he’ll correct me if I mischaracterize anything), he means it to refer to _belief_, not practice. For him, there is a distinction between “religion” and “_organized_ religion,” i.e. between faith in the supernatural and the structures that are built around that faith. To him, your belief in God makes you religious, not any adherence to a specific dogma or claimed affiliation. > > If I’m understanding you correctly, you do not make the same distinction; for you “religion” and “organized religion” are the same, and that “religion” is in and of itself a human construct. You consider faith in the supernatural and belief in Godhead to be intrinsically separate from religion. You can be faithful without being religious, and vice versa. > > If I have all that correctly, then it’s a matter of semantics. As long as you and he (or you and any of your interlocutors) _understand_ one another’s terminologies, you can communicate. > > Mind you, it makes things wildly easier if you agree on shared definitions. It’s hard to communicate without a shared language. Now this is the close to what I am saying; yes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/305 "2014-08-15T18:06:01Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Now this is the close to what I am saying; yes. How much of the Bible do you think is true? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/306 "2014-08-15T18:14:22Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > -Consciousness did not create itself, it needs no third person entity; > -its just us and God who are conscious; > -and we are extensions of him spreading a unique part of himself into humanity, > -which is destined to last forever. > -The science of God is this; he has some kind of extension , able to create a human body of flesh, > -and actually extend consciousness into it. > -God places consciousness into the humans he wanted to begin a race of conscious humans. I have broken this paragraph out into separate claims to point out that each and every one of them is completely without support. There is no evidence for any of them. They are just simply YOUR assertions, and as such, carry exactly as much weight as if I were to say that the entire universe was sneezed yesterday out of the nose of a giant invisible goat. THIS is why you are not discussing science in any way, shape, or form. THIS is why you are just witnessing. I will put this is big, simple letters for you: SCIENCE REQUIRES EVIDENCE ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/307 "2014-08-15T18:18:07Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Then any concept of ‘God’ works, yes? Or do you mean ‘God’ as defined by Jewish/Christian/Islamic religious thought? That’s what the Abrahamic religions are, btw, since you seem a bit confused by that term. > . I steer very clear of Jewish/Christian/ Islamic religious thought; I disagree with them all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/308 "2014-08-15T18:22:00Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I steer very clear of Jewish/Christian/ Islamic religious thought; I disagree with them all. So it’s the _Martian_ Bible you’ve been referring to all this time? That explains _everything_. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/309 "2014-08-15T18:32:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So it’s the _Martian_ Bible you’ve been referring to all this time? That explains _everything_. :smack: See you have fallen for the deception in history, that claims the bible is a Christian or Jewish bible, as if they own it or have legal rights to it; that book was written by humanity for humanity, no individual group or race has any rights to it. But see if you choose to look at it that way, then you can’t rail and gripe against it because the teeth you use to bite it would be taken away. You NEED it to be a book of groups or religion, then it fuels your rage against it. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/310 "2014-08-15T18:37:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How much of the Bible do you think is true? I think the way the bible was translated is faulty, but the book itself before translation was not. Difficult to ascertain the percentages and difficult to rightly discern the true accounts that seem far fetched. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/311 "2014-08-15T18:38:21Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > See you have fallen for the deception in history, that claims the bible is a Christian or Jewish bible, as if they own it or have legal rights to it; that book was written by humanity for humanity, no individual group or race has any rights to it. > > But see if you choose to look at it that way, then you can’t rail and gripe against it because the teeth you use to bite it would be taken away. You NEED it to be a book of groups or religion, then it fuels your rage against it. I think my Uncle Lucky said it best: “The depth of your ignorance is miles wide.” ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/312 "2014-08-15T18:39:33Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I have broken this paragraph out into separate claims to point out that each and every one of them is completely without support. There is no evidence for any of them. They are just simply YOUR assertions, and as such, carry exactly as much weight as if I were to say that the entire universe was sneezed yesterday out of the nose of a giant invisible goat. > > THIS is why you are not discussing science in any way, shape, or form. THIS is why you are just witnessing. I will put this is big, simple letters for you: > > SCIENCE > REQUIRES > EVIDENCE Oh I have evidence, its just too lengthy to list; [http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/general-religious-discussions/53934-god-real-113.html](http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/general-religious-discussions/53934-god-real-113.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/313 "2014-08-15T18:40:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think my Uncle Lucky said it best: “The depth of your ignorance is miles wide.” Just wide enough to get your attention. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/314 "2014-08-15T18:43:40Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That’s plain ridiculous. As I pointed out upthread, unconscious individuals would not have been consistently able to feed, shelter, and reproduce themselves. The pain of childbirth alone would have woken the women up. Not to say I’m agreeing with the op at all, but I think you misunderstand what “consciousness” means. In psychology/philosophy of mind, consciousness usually refers to what you would call self consciousness; in other words, a sense of self, that you exist as a distinct being. The claim isn’t that nonconscious beings are unaware of the physical world. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/315 "2014-08-15T18:59:31Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Now this is the close to what I am saying; yes. Thanks! How about the other terms I mentioned above? Do I have those right as well? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/316 "2014-08-15T19:01:11Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Oh I have evidence, its just too lengthy to list; > > [http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/general-religious-discussions/53934-god-real-113.html](http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/general-religious-discussions/53934-god-real-113.html) Yeah, I’m not reading another 1300 posts. Can you summarize at all? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/317 "2014-08-15T19:18:23Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > No, Consciousness equals God… > [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, it does not. Go find another word, because “consciousness” already has a perfectly valid and accepted definition. Quit stealing words. > [@Mickiel](#): > > Oh yes it does, in my humble view. :dubious: Looks like the meaning of “humble” is also getting short shrift. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/318 "2014-08-15T19:28:13Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I steer very clear of Jewish/Christian/ Islamic religious thought; I disagree with them all. Naming your “first human” _Adam_ kinda interferes with such “steering clear,” though, doesn’t it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/319 "2014-08-15T19:33:19Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > See you have fallen for the deception in history, that claims the bible is a Christian or Jewish bible, as if they own it or have legal rights to it; that book was written by humanity for humanity, no individual group or race has any rights to it. Yabbut, _you_ (:dubious:), it’s only the Christians, Jews, and Muslims who are using it. > [@Mickiel](#): > > But see if you choose to look at it that way, then you can’t rail and gripe against it because the teeth you use to bite it would be taken away. You NEED it to be a book of groups or religion, then it fuels your rage against it. _pffft_ It’s just as valid (and some would argue _moreso_) to accuse _you_ of NEEDING unbelievers to view it as some kind of poisonous amulet. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/320 "2014-08-15T19:35:29Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > If I wanted to, I could descend into the world of Issac Newton being a theologian and a believer in God, I guess that may make his work less valuable to you? Nope. Bad argument, bad rhetorical essay, bad reasoning, and bad SDMB performance. Ad hominem is not admired in these here parts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=17)