# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/481 "2014-08-17T20:58:17Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Explain to me then, how ANY human could live through the Ice Age? You _ **do** _ realize that the entire surface of the earth was not covered in several feet of ice, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/482 "2014-08-17T21:02:37Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Explain to me then, how ANY human could live through the Ice Age? You’re claiming that Adam lived 30-40,000 years ago. That _was_ the height of the last ice age. So, it must have been possible according to your theory. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/483 "2014-08-17T21:17:45Z")
What a disappointment this thread has become. ☹ The nature of consciousness and its evolution in early man are both topics which interest me. I think much of Jaynes’ thinking makes sense and would love a discussion about what he got right and what he didn’t. But instead we have hundreds of worthless posts. And learn that a Biblical fundamentalist doesn’t understand scripture as explicit as [QUOTE=Genesis 11] When Arpachshad had lived 35 years, he fathered Shelah… When Shelah had lived 30 years, he fathered Eber. … [/QUOTE] I ask the Mods to move this thread to BBQ Pit, retitled “_Why can’t Biblical fundamentalists do simple arithmetic?_” and for another Doper, who’s read Jaynes and has an open mind, to start a new thread with a title similar to this one (though avoiding the peculiar word “Primordial”). ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/484 "2014-08-17T21:25:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually this is speculation based on a non historical document. Both the Christian calculation and yours. The bible is an historical document. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/485 "2014-08-17T21:27:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What a disappointment this thread has become. ☹ > > The nature of consciousness and its evolution in early man are both topics which interest me. I think much of Jaynes’ thinking makes sense and would love a discussion about what he got right and what he didn’t. > > But instead we have hundreds of worthless posts. And learn that a Biblical fundamentalist doesn’t understand scripture as explicit as > > I ask the Mods to move this thread to BBQ Pit, retitled “_Why can’t Biblical fundamentalists do simple arithmetic?_” and for another Doper, who’s read Jaynes and has an open mind, to start a new thread with a title similar to this one (though avoiding the peculiar word “Primordial”). Why are you reading the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/486 "2014-08-17T21:28:08Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > You’re claiming that Adam lived 30-40,000 years ago. That _was_ the height of the last ice age. So, it must have been possible according to your theory. He was created after the ice age. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/487 "2014-08-17T21:30:42Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > He was created after the ice age. Then it wasn’t more than 10,000 years ago. Get your story straight. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/488 "2014-08-17T21:32:39Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > He was created after the ice age. Which one? You are aware that there were 5 distinct ‘ice age’ periods, or periods of glaciation, right? The last one ended approximately 10k years ago (well, we are in another interglacial period in any case). Is that the one you meant? So, your contention is that ‘Adam’ was created around 10k years ago? And that before that, despite things like cave paintings, sophisticated tool use and even things like burial, that ‘Primordial man’ (as arbitrarily defined by you based on the Bible) was not conscious? Is that a good summary of your dancing and weaving position? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/489 "2014-08-17T21:33:13Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > Then it wasn’t more than 10,000 years ago. Get your story straight. Get your reading straight, I clearly speculated that he lived 30 to 40,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/490 "2014-08-17T21:33:33Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > The bible is an historical document. LOL - you win one internet 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/491 "2014-08-17T21:35:07Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Which one? You are aware that there were 5 distinct ‘ice age’ periods, or periods of glaciation, right? The last one ended approximately 10k years ago (well, we are in another interglacial period in any case). Is that the one you meant? So, your contention is that ‘Adam’ was created around 10k years ago? And that before that, despite things like cave paintings, sophisticated tool use and even things like burial, that ‘Primordial man’ (as arbitrarily defined by you based on the Bible) was not conscious? Is that a good summary of your dancing and weaving position? Oh here we go again, defining the definitions of the definitions, because you know offense but have no defense. The LAST Ice age. The LAST Ice Age!!! The L A S T one! ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/492 "2014-08-17T21:35:16Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Get your reading straight, I clearly speculated that he lived 30 to 40,000 years ago. And 30 to 40,000 years ago was during the last ice age, not after it. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/493 "2014-08-17T21:39:57Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > And 30 to 40,000 years ago was during the last ice age, not after it. Well then Adam lived at least 22,000 years ago; > **[Last Glacial Period](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period)** > > The Last Glacial Period (LGP), also known as the Last glacial cycle, occurred from the end of the Last Interglacial to the beginning of the Holocene, c. 115,000 – c. 11,700 years ago, and thus corresponds to most of the timespan of the Late Pleistocene. > The LGP is part of a larger sequence of glacial and interglacial periods known as the Quaternary glaciation which started around 2,588,000 years ago and is ongoing. The glaciation and the current Quaternary Period both began with the formation ... ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/494 "2014-08-17T21:40:19Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Oh here we go again, defining the definitions of the definitions, because you know offense but have no defense. The LAST Ice age. > > The LAST Ice Age!!! > > The L A S T one! Ok, so you mean the Quaternary. And your contention is that ‘Adam’ was ‘created’ during or when it ended? Because if you are saying 30-40k years ago, it hadn’t ended. If you are saying less than 10k years, then it still hadn’t ended, but we are in an interglacial period. Here’s the thing, chief. The point of all this pedantry is that, well, you don’t have a clue what you are babbling about. You really don’t know anything about even the most recent ‘ice age’, when it started, when it receded and when there were periods of glaciation or relative warm periods (such as today). You are just talking out of your ass on this stuff, making up arbitrary horseshit based on your interpretation of the Bible, a document substantially younger than the ‘LAST Ice Age’, whatever you think that means. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/495 "2014-08-17T21:42:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ok, so you mean the Quaternary. And your contention is that ‘Adam’ was ‘created’ during or when it ended? Because if you are saying 30-40k years ago, it hadn’t ended. If you are saying less than 10k years, then it still hadn’t ended, but we are in an interglacial period. > > Here’s the thing, chief. The point of all this pedantry is that, well, you don’t have a clue what you are babbling about. You really don’t know anything about even the most recent ‘ice age’, when it started, when it receded and when there were periods of glaciation or relative warm periods (such as today). You are just talking out of your ass on this stuff, making up arbitrary horseshit based on your interpretation of the Bible, a document substantially younger than the ‘LAST Ice Age’, whatever you think that means. I would say 22,000 years ago seems to be a good guess. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/496 "2014-08-17T21:42:43Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Well then Adam lived at least 22,000 years ago; > > [Last Glacial Period - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period) Then he arrived during one of the glacial periods. Read your own cite: > [@](#): > > During this period, there were several changes between glacier advance and retreat. The maximum extent of glaciation within this last glacial period was approximately 22,000 years ago. While the general pattern of global cooling and glacier advance was similar, local differences in the development of glacier advance and retreat makes it difficult to compare the details from continent to continent (see picture of ice core data below for differences). “The maximum extent of glaciation within this last glacial period was approximately 22,000 years ago”. You do understand what ‘maximum extent of glaciation’ means, yes? From your cite: > [@](#): > > The end of the last glacial period was about 10,500 BCE, while the end of the last ice age has not yet come: little evidence points to a stop of the glacial-interglacial cycle of the last million years. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/497 "2014-08-17T21:45:19Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ok, so you mean the Quaternary. And your contention is that ‘Adam’ was ‘created’ during or when it ended? Because if you are saying 30-40k years ago, it hadn’t ended. If you are saying less than 10k years, then it still hadn’t ended, but we are in an interglacial period. > > Here’s the thing, chief. The point of all this pedantry is that, well, you don’t have a clue what you are babbling about. You really don’t know anything about even the most recent ‘ice age’, when it started, when it receded and when there were periods of glaciation or relative warm periods (such as today). You are just talking out of your ass on this stuff, making up arbitrary horseshit based on your interpretation of the Bible, a document substantially younger than the ‘LAST Ice Age’, whatever you think that means. Given his very tenuous grasp of theology and history are you really shocked about his views on geology? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/498 "2014-08-17T21:47:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Then he arrived during one of the glacial periods. Read your own cite: > > “The maximum extent of glaciation within this last glacial period was approximately 22,000 years ago”. You do understand what ‘maximum extent of glaciation’ means, yes? > > From your cite: No, he was created after the period was thawed out; why would God create him during an Ice period? And is it not reasonable to assume that God, who created the Ice period, could end it when he chooses? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/499 "2014-08-17T21:48:04Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Given his very tenuous grasp of theology and history are you really shocked about his views on geology? Nope. It’s similar to taking on a Truther or CTer, or someone ‘just asking questions’ about evolution…it helps to establish, especially for the lurkers the level of cluelessness…er, lack of knowledge about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/500 "2014-08-17T21:49:23Z")
Meanwhile, I’m still waiting to hear why it’s obvious that Homo sapiens went extinct during the last ice age. Especially since you’re now claiming that Adam & decedents survived it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=26)