# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/561 "2014-08-18T14:52:49Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > e religion part right, and that’s closer. Part of one third is close? I should have known your math skills would be on par with your other science skills. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/562 "2014-08-18T14:54:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Chauvet Cave](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvet_Cave) features art from 30-32,000 BCE. How do you square that with your notion of a circa 20,000 BCE Adam event? What has art to do with the creation of Adam? He was a greater piece of art. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/563 "2014-08-18T14:55:57Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > What has art to do with the creation of Adam? > > He was a greater piece of art. Art–conscious mind. Can you not see a connection? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/564 "2014-08-18T14:56:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Part of one third is close? I should have known your math skills would be on par with your other science skills. Your fault finding skills are on par with a defensive detective always looking for error, in a case that has already been determined. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/565 "2014-08-18T14:57:16Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > What has art to do with the creation of Adam? > > He was a greater piece of art. Is art not evidence of consciousness? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/566 "2014-08-18T14:59:19Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > What has art to do with the creation of Adam? > > He was a greater piece of art. Nothing. The ‘creation of Adam’ schtick is yours. What is shows is that ‘Primordial man’ was ‘conscious’, if you define ‘Primordial man’ as living over 30k years ago and being Homo Sapiens, and if you define ‘conscious’ as having culture and art. Of course, if you just arbitrarily define things however you like them and in terms of your own interpretation of religion then it’s not much of a debate. Which, shockingly, this isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/567 "2014-08-18T15:00:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Art–conscious mind. Can you not see a connection? I can indeed. I think the ability to draw could well be a sign of consciousness , and I don’t really believe the chauyet cave art is that old; it looks too good! ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/568 "2014-08-18T15:01:05Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Are you then suggesting that no one here is ignorant? Has there been a single post in this entire thread where you’ve actually responded to the question instead of trying to deflect it? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/569 "2014-08-18T15:01:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is art not evidence of consciousness? It can be, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/570 "2014-08-18T15:02:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Nothing. The ‘creation of Adam’ schtick is yours. What is shows is that ‘Primordial man’ was ‘conscious’, if you define ‘Primordial man’ as living over 30k years ago and being Homo Sapiens, and if you define ‘conscious’ as having culture and art. > > Of course, if you just arbitrarily define things however you like them and in terms of your own interpretation of religion then it’s not much of a debate. Which, shockingly, this isn’t. I like the way the debate is going. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/571 "2014-08-18T15:04:11Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > Has there been a single post in this entire thread where you’ve actually responded to the question instead of trying to deflect it? Yes. I have answered most of them, if not all. However most of my questions have not been answered; but I understand why. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/572 "2014-08-18T15:06:13Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I can indeed. I think the ability to draw could well be a sign of consciousness , and I don’t really believe the chauyet cave art is that old; it looks too good! That is one jaw-droppingly stupid statement to make in a thread about history, biology and consciousness if you want anyone to take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/573 "2014-08-18T15:06:31Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > It can be, yes. Well, there you are, then: consciousness is older than the date you’d proposed for its creation, therefore your hypothesis is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/574 "2014-08-18T15:09:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, there you are, then: consciousness is older than the date you’d proposed for its creation, therefore your hypothesis is incorrect. Don’t be dropping words like “hypothesis” on someone who thinks a “scientific theory” is something that sounds good when you think it to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/575 "2014-08-18T15:29:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, there you are, then: consciousness is older than the date you’d proposed for its creation, therefore your hypothesis is incorrect. I don’t believe that cave art is genuine for those ancient times; its just too good. I maintain that belief. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/576 "2014-08-18T15:31:37Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Yes. I have answered most of them, if not all. However most of my questions have not been answered; but I understand why. OK, how about an actual answer for why humans “obviously” could not survive an ice age? There was plenty of [habitable earth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period#mediaviewer/File:Last_glacial_vegetation_map.png) available. How about an explanation for how you can add up the number of years various people lived, and completely ignore the fact that those lives overlapped? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/577 "2014-08-18T15:32:28Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t believe that cave art is genuine for those ancient times; its just too good. I maintain that belief. Do you have any evidence to support that belief, or a cite from any historian that supports your belief? ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/578 "2014-08-18T15:35:06Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Are you then suggesting that no one here is ignorant? And no, no one else here claims to be without areas of ignorance. And when our errors and misunderstandings get corrected, we thank each other for the enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/579 "2014-08-18T15:41:44Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I’m a bit different than that, I really believe what I do; and it would require " Convincing" evidence to alter my views. > > The same as it would require to alter you’re views; why you think I am any different than you in that area; > > is beyond me. > > Peace See, here’s the thing: . . . :dubious: . . . :smack: Okay, here’s **A** thing: Just as it’s entirely reasonable for you to make the assertion that it would take “Convincing” evidence to cause you to alter your views, one hopes that you would agree that it’s reasonable for your interlocutors to infer that it took “Convincing” evidence to cause you to adopt those views in the first place. [del]The[/del] **A** problem arises when your interlocutors attempt to figure out exactly what that “Convincing” evidence was. The words you have been posting offer no more than CLUES to both what you consider to be “Convincing” evidence, and what you have been using as a standard to determine the degree to which evidence can be described as “Convincing.” And in all candor, those clues, when subjected to the scrutiny of people who are not you, have turned out to be an incoherent mish-mosh of inconsistency, confirmation bias, projection, magical thinking, just-so stories, circular reasoning, and question-begging. It is not to be wondered at that a collection such as this would be regarded more as a spectacle than as a thesis, and would be greeted more with argumentativeness than with a congenial response of, _"Yes, that makes so much sense. Thank you for your invaluable contribution to Mankind’s store of knowledge and wisdom; please may we have some more?_ That said, could you please share with us which texts you consider to be actual parts of the Bible? ETA: > [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t believe that cave art is genuine for those ancient times; its just too good. I maintain that belief. Add _denial of inconvenient data_ and _cognitive dissonance_ to my list above. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/580 "2014-08-18T15:42:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you have any evidence to support that belief, or a cite from any historian that supports your belief? Do I need any besides my own eyes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=30)