# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/581 "2014-08-18T15:44:08Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > See, here’s the thing: > > . . . > > :dubious: > > . . . > > :smack: > > Okay, here’s **A** thing: Just as it’s entirely reasonable for you to make the assertion that it would take “Convincing” evidence to cause you to alter your views, one hopes that you would agree that it’s reasonable for your interlocutors to infer that it took “Convincing” evidence to cause you to adopt those views in the first place. > > [del]The[/del] **A** problem arises when your interlocutors attempt to figure out exactly what that “Convincing” evidence was. The words you have been posting offer no more than CLUES to both what you consider to be “Convincing” evidence, and what you have been using as a standard to determine the degree to which evidence can be described as “Convincing.” And in all candor, those clues, when subjected to the scrutiny of people who are not you, have turned out to be an incoherent mish-mosh of inconsistency, confirmation bias, projection, magical thinking, just-so stories, circular reasoning, and question-begging. > > It is not to be wondered at that a collection such as this would be regarded more as a spectacle than as a thesis, and would be greeted more with argumentativeness than with a congenial response of, _"Yes, that makes so much sense. Thank you for your invaluable contribution to Mankind’s store of knowledge and wisdom; please may we have some more?_ > > That said, could you please share with us which texts you consider to be actual parts of the Bible? All of them. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/582 "2014-08-18T15:45:13Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > And no, no one else here claims to be without areas of ignorance. And when our errors and misunderstandings get corrected, we thank each other for the enlightenment. Can the enlightenment only come from each other? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/583 "2014-08-18T15:47:49Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > OK, how about an actual answer for why humans “obviously” could not survive an ice age? There was plenty of [habitable earth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period#mediaviewer/File:Last_glacial_vegetation_map.png) available. > > How about an explanation for how you can add up the number of years various people lived, and completely ignore the fact that those lives overlapped? They did not overlap, the Ice age, at its peak, was designed to kill most everything off, and the God who designed it is a precision being, making no mistakes; nothing that he did not want to get through, could have made it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/584 "2014-08-18T15:48:15Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > All of them. Which version/translation? Or do you consider them interchangeable? ETA: Thank you for finally responding to that question, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/585 "2014-08-18T15:49:38Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Do I need any besides my own eyes? Unless you can show us some expertise in the field, of course some cites are necessary to back up such an incredible dismissal. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/586 "2014-08-18T15:54:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless you can show us some expertise in the field, of course some cites are necessary to back up such an incredible dismissal. Can you provide me with a list of sites I have already provided that you have accepted? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/587 "2014-08-18T15:56:38Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Which version/translation? > > Or do you consider them interchangeable? > > ETA: Thank you for finally responding to that question, by the way. I am not authorizing any translation or version, I simply answered the question that all the books are actual parts of the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/588 "2014-08-18T15:58:20Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Can you provide me with a list of sites I have already provided that you have accepted? Again I ask: Do you have anything besides your personal opinion that causes you to think that those cave paintings are fake? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/589 "2014-08-18T15:59:23Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t believe that cave art is genuine for those ancient times; its just too good. I maintain that belief. Ok, but it’s only “too good” if you’ve made the prior assumption that people who lived in 32,000 BCE were not capable of making that sort of artwork. Don’t you see how that’s circular reasoning? You’re using your conclusion (people before ~20,000 BCE were not conscious) as evidence for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/590 "2014-08-18T16:04:33Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > They did not overlap. [QUOTE=Mickiel] Now, In Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, his son Seth lived 807 years, Seth son Enos lived 905 years, Enos son Cainan lived 910 years, Canians son Mahalaleel lived 895 years, His son Jared lived 962 years, his son Enoch lived 365 years, his son Methuselah lived 969 years, his son Lamech lived 777 years, and his son was Noah. And that ALONE is just the 5th chapter of Genesis on generations, before the flood and way before Abraham was even born, and it alone totals 7,219 years! The math is simple, and its right there in the bible! [/QUOTE] You’re telling me that each of those people in that list was born the year their parent died??? [QUOTE=Mickiel] the Ice age, at its peak, was designed to kill most everything off [/QUOTE] Bullshit. Look at [the map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period#mediaviewer/File:Last_glacial_vegetation_map.png). You’re provided no explanation why people could not survive in the more temperate environments that existed on much of the planet throughout the ice age. [QUOTE=Mickiel] the God who designed it is a precision being, making no mistakes; nothing that he did not want to get through, could have made it. [/QUOTE] You claim elsewhere not to know what God is thinking, but I don’t see any other way to interpret this comment. [QUOTE=Mickiel] Can the enlightenment only come from each other? [/QUOTE] You missed my point entirely. We accept and appreciate having our misunderstandings corrected. We don’t call each other names when someone points out an error in our arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/591 "2014-08-18T16:04:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again I ask: Do you have anything besides your personal opinion that causes you to think that those cave paintings are fake? I think its 95% speculation, 5% fact. [http://ancientpathwaystoasustainablefuture.org/1huntergatherers/tracking/the-tracks-in-chauvet-cave/](http://ancientpathwaystoasustainablefuture.org/1huntergatherers/tracking/the-tracks-in-chauvet-cave/) And I think providing you cites is a useless thing. [http://ichabodsview.com/2011/01/22/arrogance-and-chauvet-pont-darc/](http://ichabodsview.com/2011/01/22/arrogance-and-chauvet-pont-darc/) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/592 "2014-08-18T16:11:47Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I think its 95% speculation, 5% fact. _That’s_ all you took away from that essay? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/593 "2014-08-18T16:13:34Z")
The “5% facts and 95% speculation” remark in that article is referring to whether two sets of tracks on the cave floor were made simulataneously or not, and not to the age of the artwork: > [@](#): > > Some of the paintings on the walls of Chauvet date back to at least the Upper Paleolithic period, some 32,000 years ago. > > … > > Carbon traces from these torches have been found on the walls, which have been carbon dated to 28,000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/594 "2014-08-18T16:16:09Z")
> [@andros](#): > > _That’s_ all you took away from that essay? All I took away from this one is " Some Scientist and Artist dispute it" [http://travel.uk.msn.com/inspiration/family/photos.aspx?cp-documentid=150534874&page=3](http://travel.uk.msn.com/inspiration/family/photos.aspx?cp-documentid=150534874&page=3) But the man asked for sites, and I told him providing them would be useless. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/595 "2014-08-18T16:18:27Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I think its 95% speculation, 5% fact. > > [http://ancientpathwaystoasustainablefuture.org/1huntergatherers/tracking/the-tracks-in-chauvet-cave/](http://ancientpathwaystoasustainablefuture.org/1huntergatherers/tracking/the-tracks-in-chauvet-cave/) > > And I think providing you cites is a useless thing. > > [http://ichabodsview.com/2011/01/22/arrogance-and-chauvet-pont-darc/](http://ichabodsview.com/2011/01/22/arrogance-and-chauvet-pont-darc/) You have just done what you usually do-_provide a useless cite that does absolutely nothing to support whatever spurious point you are trying to make._ The link refers to a man tracking a wolf through Chauvet Cave. It makes no comment on the age of the paintings-that’s not what the article is about at all! ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/596 "2014-08-18T16:26:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You have just done what you usually do-_provide a useless cite that does absolutely nothing to support whatever spurious point you are trying to make._ The link refers to a man tracking a wolf through Chauvet Cave. It makes no comment on the age of the paintings-that’s not what the article is about at all! Experts still disagree on the cave art, but if I disagree with it, you think that’s strange; > **[Cave Art Reconsidered - Slow Muse](https://www.slowmuse.com/2007/05/22/cave-art-reconsidered/)** > > Painted images from Chauvet Cave Horses drawn by Nadia at 3 years, 5 months Nicholas Humphrey, author and expert on the evolution of consciousness, wrote a paper several years ago comparing the cave art at Chauvet Cave with work produced by Nadia, an... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/597 "2014-08-18T16:41:05Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Experts still disagree on the cave art, but if I disagree with it, you think that’s strange; > > [Cave Art Reconsidered - Slow Muse](http://www.slowmuse.com/2007/05/22/cave-art-reconsidered/) That is absolutely correct. If you tell me what it feels like to walk on the moon I will not listen to you, but if you cite Neil Armstrong… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/598 "2014-08-18T16:45:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Which version/translation? > > Or do you consider them interchangeable? > > ETA: Thank you for finally responding to that question, by the way. > [@Mickiel](#): > > I am not authorizing any translation or version, I simply answered the question that all the books are actual parts of the bible. I have no idea why you felt a need to mention that you’re not authorizing any translation or version of the Bible. Would you please tell me why you mentioned it? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/599 "2014-08-18T16:47:43Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Experts still disagree on the cave art, but if I disagree with it, you think that’s strange; > > [Cave Art Reconsidered - Slow Muse](http://www.slowmuse.com/2007/05/22/cave-art-reconsidered/) That article is about a dispute over the implications that the style of the art has for the sort of minds that created it, and not its age. It should also be noted that it’s from 2007, before the 2012 University of Saxony/Aix-Marseille University/Centre National de Prehistoire study that dated the rockslide that sealed the cave. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/600 "2014-08-18T16:47:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That is absolutely correct. If you tell me what it feels like to walk on the moon I will not listen to you, but if you cite Neil Armstrong… You ask for sites, I provide them; I tell you its useless endeavor; sites bounce off you like water on a ducks back. You are of the same opinion still. Now, how many sites must you reject, in order for me to satisfy your imaginary desire for them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=31)