# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/621 "2014-08-18T18:03:00Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > They have not left solid evidence of consciousness, that’s my point. Setting that aside for the moment, what _sort_ of evidence would qualify as evidence of consciousness? You’ve given some credence to art, what else? That is, what activities, other than art, are indicative of consciousness? ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/622 "2014-08-18T18:04:31Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > And you base this on what? If consciousness evolved along with the rest of our brains, it is reasonable to assume it is still evolving. Although the difference would be impossibly small compared to any point in recorded human history. It is interesting to think of people having different levels of “consciousness” but nothing good can come of it. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/623 "2014-08-18T18:07:54Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > How about common sense. You’re not even trying anymore… ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/624 "2014-08-18T18:14:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Setting that aside for the moment, what _sort_ of evidence would qualify as evidence of consciousness? You’ve given some credence to art, what else? That is, what activities, other than art, are indicative of consciousness? Architecture Language Mathmatics Education Transportation Technology Science Agriculture Religion just to name a few ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/625 "2014-08-18T18:15:43Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > You’re not even trying anymore… Look at what I am up against there is only so much you can do with a wall. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/626 "2014-08-18T18:17:24Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > [The Best Bible Translation](http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/bestbibletranslation.htm) > > Since you like and don’t like sites. That website doesn’t tell me what version of the Bible you use for reference. What version of the Bible do you use for reference? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/627 "2014-08-18T18:21:09Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Architecture > > Language > > Mathmatics > > Education > > Transportation > > Technology > > Science > > Agriculture > > Religion > > just to name a few And what specific achievements in each category must one accomplish to be considered “conscious” in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/628 "2014-08-18T18:27:07Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Can we get back to the at what point did early man develop consciousness as we know it topic again? And this time, it might be more useful to leave Adam out of the discussion. Too much of a deus ex machina for a meaningful discussion (man pops in out of nowhere, fully formed and apparently with language, but no belly button). Problem is, the OP’s theory is that “primordial” \*Homo sapiens \*went extinct during the ice age, and modern “conscious” humans were re-created in Biblical times. And he’s not remotely amenable to accepting any opinion but his own. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/629 "2014-08-18T18:30:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what specific achievements in each category must one accomplish to be considered “conscious” in your eyes? First can I ask what you mean by Achievements? And can you define " Specific?" And when you say category, what do you mean by that? And can you offer any sites on your answers? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/630 "2014-08-18T18:30:29Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Look at what I am up against > > there is only so much you can do with a wall. Yes, you keep butting your head, maybe it’s time you realised that it’s not the wall’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/631 "2014-08-18T18:30:41Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Look at what I am up against > > there is only so much you can do with a wall. Wow. You’re up against people who don’t believe that you’re right, when the only evidence you can provide is the claim that you’re right. Then you add in demonstrably false statements about Biblical chronologies and the ice age that you refuse to support, and we’re supposed to just go along? I think the wall here is the one you’re seeing in the mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/632 "2014-08-18T18:32:17Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Architecture > > Language > > Mathmatics > > Education > > Transportation > > Technology > > Science > > Agriculture > > Religion > > just to name a few That’s so broad as to be fairly unhelpful, but let’s focus on technology for a moment. Humans of the Aurignacian culture (41-47,000 years ago) [had developed specialized, and standardized, tools](http://www.culture.gouv.fr/fr/arcnat/chauvet/en/espa2.htm), made from bone, stone, and antlers. Is this not evidence of consciousness, as opposed to instinct? Standardizing tools requires education of succeeding generations, as well, so this touches on another of your criteria. They also ornamented their bodies with jewelry, including bracelets, beads, and pendants (same cite). Is this instinctual behavior? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/633 "2014-08-18T18:33:09Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > Problem is, the OP’s theory is that “primordial” \*Homo sapiens \*went extinct during the ice age, and modern “conscious” humans were re-created in Biblical times. And he’s not remotely amenable to accepting any opinion but his own. Are you any different? Explain to me when you have accepted and adopted a view coming from a Theist? The real problem is that I am no different than you concerning personal convictions , you are just prejudiced in that you think only you can be confidently committed in your views and correct in them. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/634 "2014-08-18T18:36:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s so broad as to be fairly unhelpful, but let’s focus on technology for a moment. Humans of the Aurignacian culture (41-47,000 years ago) [had developed specialized, and standardized, tools](http://www.culture.gouv.fr/fr/arcnat/chauvet/en/espa2.htm), made from bone, stone, and antlers. Is this not evidence of consciousness, as opposed to instinct? Standardizing tools requires education of succeeding generations, as well, so this touches on another of your criteria. > > They also ornamented their bodies with jewelry, including bracelets, beads, and pendants (same cite). Is this instinctual behavior? No it is not, making bone tools is not conscious behavior, animals can make tools. The information I provided is not broad, the ears of those listening here is not broad either. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/635 "2014-08-18T18:38:55Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t authorize versions of the bible; You keep saying that. Let me make myself clear (just in case I haven’t): I am not inviting you to “authorize” versions of the Bible. I’m simply interested in knowing if, in your opinion all versions of the Bible are interchangeable; and if they are not, is there a version that you personally consider to be the Standard, Against Which All Other Bible Versions Are To Be Evaluated? I promise that if you give me an explicit answer to that question I will NOT interpret it as you “authorizing” a version of the Bible. ETA: in this part of your post: > [@Mickiel](#): > > but I like this article; > > [Bible Matters--Is the King James Bible "Inerrant?"](http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/KJV.htm) I sense that you are inviting me to draw my own conclusions with respect to your opinions on comparative Bible-ology. I wish to make it clear that if you are, in fact, extending such an invitation, I am declining it. I would like my answer “directly from the tap,” if you’ll pardon a tavern-oriented figure of speech. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/636 "2014-08-18T18:48:01Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > No it is not, making bone tools is not conscious behavior, animals can make tools. First, you shouldn’t assume that no animals have a sort of consciousness. Second, you’re overlooking or choosing not to address parts of my argument. For instance, that standardization of tools is evidence of the transmission of information (ie, education). > [@Mickiel](#): > > The information I provided is not broad, the ears of those listening here is not broad either. Your list of criteria was very broad, and this is the sort of problem that results: you say technology is indicative of consciousness, I provide evidence of early human technology, but it’s evidently not the sort of technology you had in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/637 "2014-08-18T19:23:35Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Are you any different? Explain to me when you have accepted and adopted a view coming from a Theist? > > The real problem is that I am no different than you concerning personal convictions , you are just prejudiced in that you think only you can be confidently committed in your views and correct in them. I have no problem at all changing my opinion when I’m presented with actual evidence that contradicts my previously held assumptions. Doesn’t matter one whit what the religious belief of the person providing the evidence is. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/638 "2014-08-18T19:49:03Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > No it is not, making bone tools is not conscious behavior, animals can make tools. > > The information I provided is not broad, the ears of those listening here is not broad either. OK, Mickiel. I’m not seeing this thread going anywhere. And taking shots at your respondents isn’t helping. I’m going to monitor this thread and if it doesn’t acquire some substance I’m locking it down. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/639 "2014-08-18T20:36:09Z")
One more time, Mickiel: -How did the last Ice Age manage to kill each and every human being on earth, despite the fact that there was lots of perfectly liveable land even at the time of maximum ice? -How did the Ice Age manage to kill only human beings and leave other life forms alone? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/640 "2014-08-18T21:25:31Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > No it is not, making bone tools is not conscious behavior, animals can make tools. Certainly animals make tools (and there is some indication that several are ‘conscious’, depending on your definition of that word). However, they lack the sophistication and standardization. Mostly they are very simple tools…a stick peeled in a certain way in order to optimize getting an insect out of a burrow, for instance. This is nothing like the stone and bone tools from the time period under discussion. But really what this shows is that systematically when you are shown evidence that runs counter to your own pre-defined conclusions you handwave it away. There IS no physical evidence that can be presented to you that would sway you away from your rigid beliefs that ‘Primordial man’ (defined vaguely by you) was not ‘conscious’ (defined by you nebulously). So…there is no point to this debate at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=33)