# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![MinnesotaBorn\_Raised](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@MinnesotaBorn\_Raised](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinnesotaBorn_Raised)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/701 "2014-08-20T04:14:26Z")
Just ignore Mickiel and he will go away. He is a known troll who frequents many message boards (many at which he has been banned at) such as forum garden, straight dope, city data, [religiousforums.com](http://religiousforums.com) , [spiritualforums.com](http://spiritualforums.com) , [debatingchristianity.com](http://debatingchristianity.com) Some of his threads have even reached 100s of pages. > **[Mickiel's proof of God.](https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/mickiels-proof-of-god.81163/)** > > One thing that impresses me about Women, is their ability to Love and show Love for their mate. I mean some of them just get all into their Loved ones. They cling, they embrace, they protect and support, its just impressive. I myself have never... > **[Can Science Reveal God? - Page 50 - Spiritual Forums](https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25279&page=50)** > > Page 50-Can Science Reveal God? Science & Spirituality /forum/viewtopic.php?t=23121 > **[The Frog Syndrome of Evolution. (mythology, atheism, quote, believers) -...](http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1176333-frog-syndrome-evolution.html)** > > So many people are attracted to myths and embrace them with a romance that takes a life of its own. I am reminded of the tale of the princess who > **[Jesus was FAR different than most people think! (disciples, Buddha, myth) -...](http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1545945-jesus-far-different-than-most-people.html)** > > According to Matthew 1:20, concerning Jesus physical conception; " For that which has been conceived in her ( Mary's womb), is of the Holy Spirit. > **[Gays Would DESTROY The Institution Of Marriage.... (myth, church, quote) -...](http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1705730-gays-would-destroy-institution-marriage.html)** > > ....is an argument I hear all to often from the Christian right. I might ask how gay marriage would destroy marriage rather than strengthening it but > **[Individually examining the 100 proofs of God. (soul, myth, quote, evolution)...](http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1494840-individually-examining-100-proofs-god.html)** > > I have given the thread " The 100 proofs of God" before , but have never took the time to go into each one in detail. So I'll attempt that ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/702 "2014-08-20T04:23:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Self-awareness. Humans, chimps, dolphins, elephants yes. Dogs, cats, no. But dogs have no non-human equal in ability to read human emotions. They evolved that way. I would have put dogs in the “yes” column – as **Crane** and **dropzone** suggest. Cats, I’m not really sure of. For example… Have you ever seen a cat make a mistake – say, tip over a bottle of soda – and then look around to see if anybody noticed? If nobody saw it, then “it didn’t happen,” but if someone did happen to see it, the cat goes into a grand act of perfect nonchalance. “Don’t be foolish; such things don’t happen to me…” (Okay, maybe this is just projection… With any kind of animal psychology, that’s the number one booby trap…) (Now heroically avoiding making jokes about Boobies and other seabirds’ psychology…) ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/703 "2014-08-20T04:31:33Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Speaking as a professional scientist, allow me to assure you that you don’t have the first flipping CLUE what the word “evidence” actually means. Now, don’t feel bad - the vast majority of the nonscience world has only a pretty vague notion of how to separate fact from opinion - but it doesn’t change the fact that you’re just flat-out wrong about what it is. > > Put simply, evidence MUST be objective fact. Everyone who views evidence, no matter what their personal views are, must be able to agree on an observable, objective fact for it to be evidence. Well over 90% of what you’re presenting as “evidence” has already been filtered through your own personal worldview, and is mostly interpretation rather than just simple fact. > > But since you’re redefining every other word in the language, we can just add “evidence” onto the pile. Speaking as a non professional, the lack of evidence can be evidence within itself. If we have no evidence that a human being can fly on their own, that can be evidence that we can’t fly. If there is no evidence that humans exist anywherelse in the Universe, that can be evidence that they don’t. If we have no evidence that Primordial man was conscious, that can be evidence they were not. Its circumstantial, but its evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/704 "2014-08-20T04:35:39Z")
> [@MinnesotaBorn\_Raised](#): > > Just ignore Mickiel and he will go away. > > He is a known troll who frequents many message boards (many at which he has been banned at) such as forum garden, straight dope, city data, [religiousforums.com](http://religiousforums.com) , [spiritualforums.com](http://spiritualforums.com) , [debatingchristianity.com](http://debatingchristianity.com) > > Some of his threads have even reached 100s of pages. > [http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/81163-mickiels-proof-god.html](http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/81163-mickiels-proof-god.html) > [Can Science Reveal God? - Page 50 - Spiritual Forums](http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25279&page=50) > /forum/viewtopic.php?t=23121 > > [The Frog Syndrome of Evolution. (mythology, atheism, quote, believers) - Religion and Spirituality -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - City-Data Forum](http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1176333-frog-syndrome-evolution.html) > [Jesus was FAR different than most people think! (disciples, Buddha, myth) - Religion and Spirituality -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - City-Data Forum](http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1545945-jesus-far-different-than-most-people.html) > [Gays Would DESTROY The Institution Of Marriage.... (myth, church, quote) - Religion and Spirituality -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - City-Data Forum](http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1705730-gays-would-destroy-institution-marriage.html) > [Individually examining the 100 proofs of God. (soul, myth, quote, evolution) - Religion and Spirituality -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - City-Data Forum](http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-spirituality/1494840-individually-examining-100-proofs-god.html) Well this is certainly true; If I am ignored, I will go away. I just can’t think of any site where I have been ignored. Most of the threads receive thousands of views and comments. And I have been banned from many places, mostly Christian places, because I press hard on them. So I understand being banned, at times I do press hard. But if I am ignored, I do not continue; I think that would be rude. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/705 "2014-08-20T05:01:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And…why? Does this kind of cognition confer a survival advantage large enough to justify the incredible cost in metabolism and other investments? Does our consciousness really pay off that highly? I don’t know if this is still in vogue but I always liked the idea that our braininess is runaway sexual selection that only stopped because our heads could barely fit through the birth canal anymore. So things like music, humor, etc. are sexual ornaments. One problem with that (for me) is it’s usually the males who show off while the females are plain, so wouldn’t that mean men should be super smart and women should be dullards? But at some point women would have to evolve with them since you have to be smart to appreciate someone else being smart. Gender controversies aside, there’s not much sexual dimorphism when it comes to human intelligence, especially compared to something like Peacock tails. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/706 "2014-08-20T05:06:52Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Well this is certainly true; If I am ignored, I will go away. I just can’t think of any site where I have been ignored. Most of the threads receive thousands of views and comments. And I have been banned from many places, mostly Christian places, because I press hard on them. > > So I understand being banned, at times I do press hard. But if I am ignored, I do not continue; I think that would be rude. We could ignore you, but I’m not sure what good that would achieve. You have done at least one admirable thing: you started an interesting thread that has recently evolved into a mature and reasonable discussion about the complexities of the human experience. It may not have taken the turn you wanted it to, but see how well people with differing views are conversing now. Nothing trollish about that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/707 "2014-08-20T06:32:20Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I don’t know if this is still in vogue but I always liked the idea that our braininess is runaway sexual selection that only stopped because our heads could barely fit through the birth canal anymore. So things like music, humor, etc. are sexual ornaments. One problem with that (for me) is it’s usually the males who show off while the females are plain, so wouldn’t that mean men should be super smart and women should be dullards? But at some point women would have to evolve with them since you have to be smart to appreciate someone else being smart. Gender controversies aside, there’s not much sexual dimorphism when it comes to human intelligence, especially compared to something like Peacock tails. Grin! I have absolutely not idea if this is true or valid or espoused by evolutionary science…but it’s cool, and I like it! Wit and wisdom and knowledge and sophistication are very sexy, in men and in women! Also, of course, if intelligence does have survival benefits – if, say, smart people bring home more rabbits or more peaches – then having a smart lover is also a survival benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/708 "2014-08-20T06:40:45Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > We could ignore you, but I’m not sure what good that would achieve. You have done at least one admirable thing: you started an interesting thread that has recently evolved into a mature and reasonable discussion about the complexities of the human experience. It may not have taken the turn you wanted it to, but see how well people with differing views are conversing now. Nothing trollish about that. Well I think the topic is of interest, and I am not dictating the turns it takes , nor have I tried to keep others from speaking as they wish; I have questioned those who have complained about it and asked why they are reading it? I have consistently tried to keep it on topic, but failed at that many times, just going with the ebb and flow of it. I have given dozens of sites, over 100 books referred, and debated against at least 20 people or more. Answered at least 90% of the questions and got sidetracked a bit by going on the offensive against those who have consistently slandered me. But they drew first blood. And I got warned?? But I can expect no less being a Theist on a site that is dominated by non Theist; I have figured if Atheist can come to Theist boards and be welcomed, that we can do the same. But you know how that goes. I cannot imagine ANY group of early Homo saphiens in ancient times predating Adam, engaging each other like this. Well why not? I think Consciousness explains it. And when a people lack things in history, they cannot leave record of what they lacked; so the lack is a record within itself. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/709 "2014-08-20T06:51:14Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I cannot imagine ANY group of early Homo saphiens in ancient times predating Adam, engaging each other like this. Your lack of imagination isn’t evidence for anything. > [@](#): > > Well why not? I think Consciousness explains it. And when a people lack things in history, they cannot leave record of what they lacked; so the lack is a record within itself. Because they didn’t have the inventions necessary to do it. For tribesmen who hunt and follow herds, writing wasn’t important enough to invent. Writing became important enough when we built cities and needed to record things, and keep track of logistics. Also, it is simply untrue that humans died out in the ice age. That’s just something you believe that isn’t real. Basing your ideas on nonsense that is shown to be nonsense by scientific observation makes your ideas just about worthless. You have the right to have worthless ideas, of course. But don’t expect them to be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/710 "2014-08-20T07:08:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Your lack of imagination isn’t evidence for anything. > > Because they didn’t have the inventions necessary to do it. For tribesmen who hunt and follow herds, writing wasn’t important enough to invent. > . Goodness, you are suggesting that leaving archaeology we can study, requires inventions? Don’t expect me to take that seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/711 "2014-08-20T07:29:34Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Goodness, you are suggesting that leaving archaeology we can study, requires inventions? No. You suggested that pre-Adam humanity (by the way, Adam didn’t exist) didn’t have conversations like we’re having. I took that to mean written ones, since you want evidence of them to have survived. How do you expect evidence of complex communication to last unless it’s written down? Echos? > [@](#): > > Don’t expect me to take that seriously. I don’t expect you to be willing to accept anything other than what you believe now. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/712 "2014-08-20T11:21:17Z")
> [@MinnesotaBorn\_Raised](#): > > Just ignore Mickiel and he will go away. > > He is a known troll who frequents many message boards (many at which he has been banned at) such as forum garden, straight dope, city data, [religiousforums.com](http://religiousforums.com) , [spiritualforums.com](http://spiritualforums.com) , debatingchristianity.comes. Whatever your opinion of this poster, it is against the rules to attack their persons or to call anyone “troll.”. Do not do this again. If you believe that Mickiel has been banned from The Straight Dope under a different username, please use the Report button to communicate that to the staff. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/713 "2014-08-20T11:27:09Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Speaking as a non professional, the lack of evidence can be evidence within itself. If we have no evidence that a human being can fly on their own, that can be evidence that we can’t fly. If there is no evidence that humans exist anywherelse in the Universe, that can be evidence that they don’t. If we have no evidence that Primordial man was conscious, that can be evidence they were not. > > Its circumstantial, but its evidence. Speaking as a rational human being with a functional brain, this is horseshit that in no way addresses anything being said by anyone. Also, we’re all still waiting to hear exactly how the Ice Age managed to kill off all humans and only humans. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/714 "2014-08-20T13:17:06Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > If you Mods don’t like the thread , close it. I am sure there are plenty of threads you like and agree with. “Like” in what way? There are a lot of opinions posted here with which I disagree. There are various threads in which I disagree with both sides. My agreement with the views expressed in a thread have never been a determinant as to whether a thread will remain open. On the other hand, a thread that does nothing but raise hackles while one side refuses to debate in good faith is disruptive and causes me unnecessary work to ensure that the level of anger does not result in the breaking of rules. From that perspective, this thread is definitely going in the direction of one that I do not “like.” You have posted nothing but personal opinions, unsupported by facts or logic for your central thesis. The citations you have provided for ancillary discussions have routinely been links to sites run by charlatans and fools. The principal reason this thread initially remained open was that we tolerate witnessing in this forum. However, with your repeated assertion that you are not religious, it is hard to view your unsupported opinions as witnessing for any belief. Since you do not appear to wish to actually engage in your own thread except to repeat your fact free opinions, I guess I will take you at your word and shut down this nonsense. If you choose to open a new thread at some point, be sure to lay out a complete and coherent point in your OP rather than posting drips and drops of raw opinion and then whining that your failure to make a coherent point has been picked apart by other posters. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=35)