# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/61 "2014-08-11T21:42:42Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Life must be hell for you. > [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t believe in hell. Yes, we know. :dubious: Anyway I wasn’t talking to you; I was talking to **Smeghead** > [@Smeghead](#): > > I have no horse in this race; _ **I just can’t stand seeing someone be wrong on the internet.** _ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/62 "2014-08-11T21:52:08Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I am not religious > [@Mickiel](#): > > we think consciousness came from consciousness and emerged as a result of it being “Embedded within humanity.” It was put there. No evidence for Consciousness exist in the physical world; because its a spiritual thing; So, there you have it folks. And consciousness came from consciousness. Turtles, all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/63 "2014-08-11T21:59:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, there you have it folks. > > And consciousness came from consciousness. Turtles, all the way down. And Life came from Life; Doves, all the way up! ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/64 "2014-08-11T23:15:04Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > It may " Appear" that way to you’re constuiants, but not mine; we think consciousness came from consciousness and emerged as a result of it being “Embedded within humanity.” It was put there. No evidence for Consciousness exist in the physical world; because its a spiritual thing; > > [http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness](http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness) :rolleyes: OK, fine. You’re just another bog-standard Science Denier, determined to believe whatever idea is in your little head, regardless of evidence or rational logic. You can be reliably counted upon, then, to have absolutely nothing whatsoever new or of interest to say that I haven’t already heard and debunked hundreds of times before. I have long since run out of interest in doing it yet again. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/65 "2014-08-11T23:32:43Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Neither animal consciousness , nor Primordial consciousness is evident to me; an animal does not even know its an animal; consciousness is self awareness , if nothingelse. Some animals demonstrate both self awareness and the awareness that other beings are self aware. > [@GeorgeLTirebiter](#): > > The supreme paradox of all thought is the attempt to discover something that thought cannot think. > —Søren Kierkegaard Not that hard actually. There’s all sorts of things both in nature and human made that are beyond the ability of any one person to understand, and others humans even as a group don’t grasp. They are either too complex, or too alien to how human minds work. A human can mathematically specify a ten dimensional object, but they can’t _actually imagine_ one; human brains don’t work like that. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/66 "2014-08-11T23:39:19Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > :rolleyes: > > OK, fine. You’re just another bog-standard Science Denier, determined to believe whatever idea is in your little head, regardless of evidence or rational logic. > > You can be reliably counted upon, then, to have absolutely nothing whatsoever new or of interest to say that I haven’t already heard and debunked hundreds of times before. I have long since run out of interest in doing it yet again. > > I’m done. I don’t deny science when its true, only when its blind. I have chased many debators away in my time, you are just another on a long list; I won’t grieve. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/67 "2014-08-11T23:54:32Z")
Chimpanzees and orangutans and gorillas and elephants and dolphins are all conscious, so the notion that God stuffed a soul into the First Man is simply nonsense, unless he was also stuffing souls into all sorts of creatures. Yes it’s true that non-human primates and other large-brained creatures don’t have the same capability for full language that _Homo sapiens sapiens_ does. We’ve got a lot larger brain than a chimp does. But that large brain is surely what gives us more of this “consciousness” stuff, right? Otherwise, if consciousness is something non-physical, I couldn’t damage your consciousness by taking an ice-pick to your brain. And when we look at the fossil record, we see human ancestors with chimplike brains, and then larger brains, and then larger brains. If that larger brain isn’t responsible for us having more and more consciousness than non-human animals, then what is? A soul? What’s that? How does the soul interact with the crude matter of our brains and bodies? If it can’t be measured, if there is no physical difference between someone who has a soul and someone who doesn’t have a soul, then how can we be justified in saying that there is a difference? If there is a difference, shouldn’t we be able to say what that difference is? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/68 "2014-08-12T00:11:07Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > It may " Appear" that way to you’re constuiants, but not mine; we think consciousness came from consciousness and emerged as a result of it being “Embedded within humanity.” It was put there. No evidence for Consciousness exist in the physical world; because its a spiritual thing . . . Put there by whom? For someone who isn’t religious, you’re using very religious language. What does “spiritual” mean in a scientific context? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/69 "2014-08-12T00:45:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Put there by whom? For someone who isn’t religious, you’re using very religious language. What does “spiritual” mean in a scientific context? Its not religious language, its language that religion usurped as its own, and that you have accepted the " Sound of"; I sound religious to you because of the ingrained patterns of language you have marked in you’re head. Consciousness is the scientific context of Spirit; if you need to view spirit in a scientific sense, then view it as consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/70 "2014-08-12T00:46:38Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Its not religious language, its language that religion usurped as its own, and that you have accepted the " Sound of"; I sound religious to you because of the ingrained patterns of language you have marked in you’re head. > > Consciousness is the scientific context of Spirit; if you need to view spirit in a scientific sense, then view it as consciousness. Bull. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/71 "2014-08-12T00:49:49Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Chimpanzees and orangutans and gorillas and elephants and dolphins are all conscious, ? I totally disagree, none of those animals know that they are animals; none of them know where they are at, or how they look. None of them know how they got here, and absolutely none of them even know " Where here is?" None of them know their chemistry, their vital organs, they are not aware of what country they are from or what color they are. They don’t know what arms and legs are, and they have no ideal what a brain is. And you want to claim they are conscious; good grief! ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/72 "2014-08-12T00:51:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Bull. Truth! Which term is more powerful? ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/73 "2014-08-12T00:55:26Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I think Julian Jaynes book on consciousness is excellent, in fact I developed my theory based on some of his; and this is just theory, I cannot prove it. But the bible refers to Adam as " The First man", and we know from archaeology and science that could not be true; so my theory is that he was simply the first man with Consciousness; or a full working one. The first man created in God’s image, which is consciousness; but that would mean, if that much is true, that humans before Adam, just had no consciousness, or none as developed as humans after Adam. > > Jaynes proved that most of what we do, even now, we do it unconsciously; so its really no far reach to imagine a whole race of unconscious humans doing simple everyday things. > > In example, we can drive a car, while looking in the mirror and combing our hair, while steering the wheel, while looking at the road, while being sure not to hit anything around you, while listening to music, while talking on the phone, while applying the brakes, while keeping your speed in mind, while watching other traffic; and most of those things, we do unconsciously. So humans can do a lot, and not be conscious of doing it, or not really needing to be conscious to do them. > > If you know what I mean. But if you are going to believe the Babble Adam was formed from the dust of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/74 "2014-08-12T00:58:07Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Truth! > > Which term is more powerful? Who gives a shit? You have yet to show you know the definition of half the words you throw around. You had this problem in your last thread, and you have the same problem in this thread. By the way, taking a book you found and barely understand and filtering it through your Bible for meaning(which the book’s author clearly never intended)? That’s _religious._ ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/75 "2014-08-12T00:58:07Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t believe in hell. I do I been there. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/76 "2014-08-12T01:02:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who gives a shit? You have yet to show you know the definition of half the words you throw around. You had this problem in your last thread, and you have the same problem in this thread. By the way, taking a book you found and barely understand and filtering it through your Bible for meaning(which the book’s author clearly never intended)? > That’s _religious._ Its religious in your head, its excitement in mine! And I could care less what you think of my ability to define words. I did not care then, and don’t care now. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/77 "2014-08-12T01:04:18Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > But if you are going to believe the Babble Adam was formed from the dust of the earth. You believe you have been to hell, why can’t I believe Adam existed? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/78 "2014-08-12T01:07:35Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Its religious in your head, its excitement in mine! > > And I could care less what you think of my ability to define words. I did not care then, and don’t care now. If you are reinterpreting someone else’s words through the Bible, that is religion and not science, end of story. If this excites you personally, I really don’t want to hear about it. Why don’t you just drop all the pseudo-scientific jargon you are manhandling in this thread and just do some old-fashioned witnessing, because you are fooling nobody. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/79 "2014-08-12T01:13:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you are reinterpreting someone else’s words through the Bible, that is religion and not science, end of story. If this excites you personally, I really don’t want to hear about it. Why don’t you just drop all the pseudo-scientific jargon you are manhandling in this thread and just do some old-fashioned witnessing, because you are fooling nobody. I don’t believe in old fashioned witnessing, I believe God contacts the humans he wants to deal with, he does not need other humans to do that for him; your slander and sarcasm is old fashioned. If you don’t want to hear my thoughts, then don’t read them, or start working to get the thread closed. Simple choices; simple things, both of which you are good at doing. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/80 "2014-08-12T01:16:15Z")
Was Primordial man conscious? I think not in my humble opinion; if he were conscious, he would have grown and developed intellectually as we do now; they did not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=5)