# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/81 "2014-08-12T01:21:54Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > That’s nonsense. The accepted biological view is that consciousness appears to be an emergent property of the very complex system of human neurons. This system is, of course, ultimately governed by the relevant genetic networks. Experiments have been done in model organisms that show how behavior and cognition can be affected by genetic changes. Similarly, there are genetic disorders in humans that result in predictable, reproducible changes in human intelligence and cognition, demonstrating beyond doubt the link between genetics and human thought. > > Anyone who wishes to claim an alternative hypothesis is welcome to do so, but without evidence to back it up, such alternatives are nothing but hot air. The religious point of view simply boils down to “I don’t like that notion, so therefore there’s magic going on because that makes me special”. There’s not a shred of evidence to back that up. > > I don’t think so. Obviously (to anyone with a passing understanding of biology), there is a chain of development from unthinking, nonconscious organisms to modern human. Logically, there must have been some point along that chain where consciousness emerged. That’s indisputible. The only interesting question remaining is exactly where along that chain we can pinpoint its emergence. > > The OP here has asked a very vague question. With a general wave toward this line, he asked “Did it start here?” The many responses asking him to explain exactly what he means by “primordial human” are simply asking him to narrow down what part of the line he’s talking about so that we can attempt an answer. Graham Hancock wrote a very interesting bool called Supernatural that addressed many of these things. Incoherent humanity ingested mushrooms and started to hallucinate and that is how consciousness started. Good read Every one should read it. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/82 "2014-08-12T01:29:08Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I totally disagree, none of those animals know that they are animals; none of them know where they are at, or how they look. None of them know how they got here, and absolutely none of them even know " Where here is?" None of them know their chemistry, their vital organs, they are not aware of what country they are from or what color they are. They don’t know what arms and legs are, and they have no ideal what a brain is. > > And you want to claim they are conscious; good grief! My dog knows where she is when she is home and a dozen other places, She recognizes herselfin the mirror. But that is about it. I don’t think she is sentient, but when she is doing her duty of protecting the house she is conscous of that and of what her job is. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/83 "2014-08-12T01:34:16Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > My dog knows where she is when she is home and a dozen other places, She recognizes herselfin the mirror. But that is about it. I don’t think she is sentient, but when she is doing her duty of protecting the house she is conscous of that and of what her job is. that’s instinct in a nutshell. And she does not recognize herself in the mirror; she is not self aware; its just wishful thinking on your part. You want her to be conscious like you; but she is not, and nowhere even near it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/84 "2014-08-12T01:43:42Z")
You thinking of [prior to behavioural modernity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity#Great_leap_forward) and the great leap forward (not that one)? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/85 "2014-08-12T01:51:33Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > You thinking of [prior to behavioural modernity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity#Great_leap_forward) and the great leap forward (not that one)? I think the great leap forward was caused by the giving of humans consciousness; it was the advent of consciousness that birthed the great leap, in my opinion. It was not evolution, humans had already lived millions of years; it was not anything physical, the human body did absolutely nothing to cause consciousness; it was not environment, that cannot deliver consciousness to humans; technology and science didn’t do it. The logical, reasonable and most obvious explination is the Adam event; consciousness was given by a greater conscious power. And then passed on through human reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/86 "2014-08-12T01:55:29Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Neither animal consciousness , nor Primordial consciousness is evident to me Well, that’s hardly a surprise. > [@Mickiel](#): > > Primordial man, did not know it was a human, did not know what they were or where they were at. I have seen no evidence of any self awareness in neither. What makes you think you’ve observed “primordial man?” What makes you think “consciousness” would have left fossil evidence? Maybe they had very sophisticated social interaction, like the K’ung in Africa. > [@Mickiel](#): > > that’s instinct in a nutshell. And she does not recognize herself in the mirror; she is not self aware; its just wishful thinking on your part. You know this how? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/87 "2014-08-12T01:57:29Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > that’s instinct in a nutshell. And she does not recognize herself in the mirror; she is not self aware; its just wishful thinking on your part. > > You want her to be conscious like you; but she is not, and nowhere even near it. Apes (orangutans, and I think and gorillas and chimps) and dolphins recognize themselves in a mirror, though. Are they descended from “Adam”? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/88 "2014-08-12T02:04:07Z")
Recognizing one’s self in a mirror requires that there be self realization and self awareness, no animal has self realization. Animals have no potential , they are fixed existence and cannot go beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/89 "2014-08-12T02:23:48Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t believe in old fashioned witnessing, I believe God contacts the humans he wants to deal with . . . I thought you said you weren’t religious? Who’s this “God” you invoke? **Smeghead** was right: consciousness is an emergent property arising out of the complexity of the mammalian neural net. It is a purely physical phenomenon, partaking nothing of the spiritual. (One severe problem being that “spiritual” is a word that has no meaning.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/90 "2014-08-12T02:26:27Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Recognizing one’s self in a mirror requires that there be self realization and self awareness, no animal has self realization. Animals have no potential , they are fixed existence and cannot go beyond that. Says who? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/91 "2014-08-12T02:36:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I thought you said you weren’t religious? Who’s this “God” you invoke? > > **Smeghead** was right: consciousness is an emergent property arising out of the complexity of the mammalian neural net. It is a purely physical phenomenon, partaking nothing of the spiritual. > > (One severe problem being that “spiritual” is a word that has no meaning.) I don’t invoke God. And Spiritual just has no meaning to you; and you are in the minority on that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/92 "2014-08-12T02:42:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Says who? Says me! Self realization is the fulfillment of one’s potential, and the potential of humans is vast; animals have no potential, they are fixed existence. I thought you did not want to hear from me; listen, make you’re mind up and at least be consistant; either be in or out; but realize you cannot control this thread. You may not like me, I may not like you, but I never try and silence you and I never bug any of your threads. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/93 "2014-08-12T02:45:44Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Says me! > > Self realization is the fulfillment of one’s potential, and the potential of humans is vast; animals have no potential, they are fixed existence. What gives you the idea that this is true? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/94 "2014-08-12T02:53:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What gives you the idea that this is true? An animals mind is not open, its a closed system; it has definite parameters; it can learn tricks and commands, but it will never know WHY the tricks and WHY the commands. You can teach them minimal information, but they personally can never define that information and process it in terms of why. They cannot place reason and explination with the information. Some instincts they have may be complex, but it still is fixed and habitual, they cannot go outside of those boundries. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/95 "2014-08-12T02:56:08Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > An animals mind is not open, its a closed system; it has definite parameters; it can learn tricks and commands, but it will never know WHY the tricks and WHY the commands. You can teach them minimal information, but they personally can never define that information and process it in terms of why. They cannot place reason and explination with the information. > > Some instincts they have may be complex, but it still is fixed and habitual, they cannot go outside of those boundries. I’m sorry, but what is your area of expertise in these matters? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/96 "2014-08-12T03:04:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sorry, but what is your area of expertise in these matters? So you only speak with experts? One has to be an expert to post in this" my humble opinion" section in your view? Oh so now your changing the rules of this section? Now you imply that I must be an expert on animals? On Consciousness? On Primordial man? I don’t need to be an expert to see through some people; they are transparent. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/97 "2014-08-12T03:08:44Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > An animals mind is not open, its a closed system; it has definite parameters; it can learn tricks and commands, but it will never know WHY the tricks and WHY the commands. You can teach them minimal information, but they personally can never define that information and process it in terms of why. They cannot place reason and explination with the information. > > Some instincts they have may be complex, but it still is fixed and habitual, they cannot go outside of those boundries. I apologize for taking these as any sort of facts. I will now accept them as blind guesses. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/98 "2014-08-12T03:16:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I apologize for taking these as any sort of facts. I will now accept them as blind guesses. When will you accept the fact that you really do want to talk with me? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/99 "2014-08-12T03:38:14Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > An animals mind is not open, its a closed system; it has definite parameters; it can learn tricks and commands, but it will never know WHY the tricks and WHY the commands. You can teach them minimal information, but they personally can never define that information and process it in terms of why. They cannot place reason and explination with the information. > > Some instincts they have may be complex, but it still is fixed and habitual, they cannot go outside of those boundries. Ravens would clearly disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/100 "2014-08-12T03:47:29Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > . . . I believe God contacts the humans he wants to deal with . . . > [@Mickiel](#): > > . . . consciousness was given by a greater conscious power. . . . > [@Trinopus](#): > > I thought you said you weren’t religious? Who’s this “God” you invoke? . . . > [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t invoke God. Well, yes, you did. > [@](#): > > And Spiritual just has no meaning to you; and you are in the minority on that as well. Argument from popularity? Not logically valid nor persuasive. Can you clear up your obvious self-contradictions here, and, perhaps, give a working definition of “spiritual?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=6)