# Was Primordial man conscious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247 "2014-08-10T17:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/101 "2014-08-12T04:01:09Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Neither animal consciousness , nor Primordial consciousness is evident to me; an animal does not even know its an animal; consciousness is self awareness , if nothingelse. Primordial man, did not know it was a human, did not know what they were or where they were at. I have seen no evidence of any self awareness in neither. This is a personal statement about the limitations of your own awareness. It has nothing to do with the capability of other animals or humans (who are, of course, animals,) for self-awareness. It’s also a misuse of the word “neither”, but well, really, what should we expect? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/102 "2014-08-12T04:41:58Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I totally disagree, none of those animals know that they are animals; none of them know where they are at, or how they look. None of them know how they got here, and absolutely none of them even know " Where here is?" None of them know their chemistry, their vital organs, they are not aware of what country they are from or what color they are. They don’t know what arms and legs are, and they have no ideal what a brain is. > > And you want to claim they are conscious; good grief! > [@Mickiel](#): > > An animals mind is not open, its a closed system; it has definite parameters; it can learn tricks and commands, but it will never know WHY the tricks and WHY the commands. You can teach them minimal information, but they personally can never define that information and process it in terms of why. They cannot place reason and explination with the information… You are confusing consciousness with knowledge. (and all your other posts in this thread with reality) If a field mouse saw which box you put a treat inside and Albert Einstein didn’t, the field mouse would outperform Einstein in a game of find the treat all day long. The mouse doesn’t need to understand the physics of the box, he just needs to see which one the treat goes in. In this test, both are conscious but one has knowledge the other doesn’t. If you change the game to who can drive a car Einstein would be the clear favorite. That doesn’t mean the mouse doesn’t have consciousness. The things that define consciousness as you seem to be using the term though have been studied quite extensively by many. They are things like self-awareness, theory of mind and impulse control, to name a few. Countless studies performed over decades suggest that many non-human animals have this level of consciousness. It is undeniable. This has nothing to do with your original question about when humans developed them, but is just an answer to this one branch of your uninformed musings on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/103 "2014-08-12T05:05:28Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > The logical, reasonable and most obvious explination is the Adam event; consciousness was given by a greater conscious power. And then passed on through human reproduction. I dunno; sounds kinda Lamarckian to me. Human reproduction simply does not pass along externally acquired characteristics. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/104 "2014-08-12T05:09:57Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > My dog knows where she is when she is home and a dozen other places, She recognizes herselfin the mirror. But that is about it. I don’t think she is sentient, but when she is doing her duty of protecting the house she is conscous of that and of what her job is. She’s certainly [sentient](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentient), just not [sapient](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapience#Sapience). > [@njtt](#): > > Apes (orangutans, and I think and gorillas and chimps) and dolphins recognize themselves in a mirror, though. Are they descended from “Adam”? Time traveler to base: “Adam’s…shorter and hairier than I thought he’d be. Oh, and it was a Banana of Knowledge, not an apple. Eve? She was a dolphin. No, I _don’t_ know how that works.” ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/105 "2014-08-12T13:53:34Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, yes, you did. > > Argument from popularity? Not logically valid nor persuasive. > > Can you clear up your obvious self-contradictions here, and, perhaps, give a working definition of “spiritual?” Straight Dope needs to provide a dictionary on site, I never seen so many people requesting the definitions of simple terms. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/106 "2014-08-12T14:26:53Z")
Hey, guys, I just picked a load of fresh blueberries, and could use some good recipes to use them up. Suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/107 "2014-08-12T14:33:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I dunno; sounds kinda Lamarckian to me. Human reproduction simply does not pass along externally acquired characteristics. :dubious: This is actually a valid good point, which I agree with. Yet consciousness is passed on; which in my view proves that consciousness is a given; it is provided by an outside source. Which I think again points to a God, or a Spirit being who gives part of himself to humans, that part being life and Spirit; both of which result in consciousness. What some refer to as " A soul"; others call it " A Ghost." Some science may refer to it as " Being." Or intelligence. There is an effort underway to define those things in physical terms, which I think is diversion; we need to look at Spirit to understand spirit. We don’t need religion to examine spirit, that is just another traditional diversion. A scientific study of consciousness would be of interest, that would no doubt point to things that would exclude physical definitions to a Spiritual examination; consciousness is a study in the spiritual; then the most important reference tool would be the bible; in my humble opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/108 "2014-08-12T14:38:03Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > This is actually a valid good point, which I agree with. Yet consciousness is passed on; which in my view proves that consciousness is a given; it is provided by an outside source. Which I think again points to a God, or a Spirit being who gives part of himself to humans, that part being life and Spirit; both of which result in consciousness. What some refer to as " A soul"; others call it " A Ghost." Some science may refer to it as " Being." Or intelligence. > > There is an effort underway to define those things in physical terms, which I think is diversion; we need to look at Spirit to understand spirit. We don’t need religion to examine spirit, that is just another traditional diversion. A scientific study of consciousness would be of interest, that would no doubt point to things that would exclude physical definitions to a Spiritual examination; consciousness is a study in the spiritual; then the most important reference tool would be the bible; in my humble opinion. These are the types of research that I think would put science in the right direction to examine what they may indeed fear, or just don’t want to discover; [http://hayehwathainstitute.org/blog/gary-schwartz-on-spirit-research/](http://hayehwathainstitute.org/blog/gary-schwartz-on-spirit-research/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/109 "2014-08-12T14:38:25Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > This is actually a valid good point, which I agree with. Yet consciousness is passed on; which in my view proves that consciousness is a given; it is provided by an outside source. Which I think again points to a God, or a Spirit being who gives part of himself to humans, that part being life and Spirit; both of which result in consciousness. What some refer to as " A soul"; others call it " A Ghost." Some science may refer to it as " Being." Or intelligence. > > There is an effort underway to define those things in physical terms, which I think is diversion; we need to look at Spirit to understand spirit. We don’t need religion to examine spirit, that is just another traditional diversion. A scientific study of consciousness would be of interest, that would no doubt point to things that would exclude physical definitions to a Spiritual examination; consciousness is a study in the spiritual; then the most important reference tool would be the bible; in my humble opinion. No other books from other religions qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/110 "2014-08-12T14:41:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No other books from other religions qualify? Any source of information in this area would qualify; even this one; [http://www.quietatheist.com/index.php/2009/05/spiritual-science-research-foundation/](http://www.quietatheist.com/index.php/2009/05/spiritual-science-research-foundation/) ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/111 "2014-08-12T14:45:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No other books from other religions qualify? Even the Toledot Yeshu offers keys; > **[Toledot Yeshu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu)** > > Sefer Toledot Yeshu (ספר תולדות ישו, The Book of the Generations/History/Life of Jesus), often abbreviated as Toledot Yeshu, is a medieval text which presents an alternative, anti-christian view, as well as a disputed biography of Jesus Christ. It exists in a number of different versions, none of which is considered either canonical or normative within Rabbinic literature, but which appear to have been widely circulated in Europe and the Middle East in the medieval period. A 15th-centur The Tole... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/112 "2014-08-12T14:46:58Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Any source of information in this area would qualify; even this one; > > [http://www.quietatheist.com/index.php/2009/05/spiritual-science-research-foundation/](http://www.quietatheist.com/index.php/2009/05/spiritual-science-research-foundation/) I would say especially this one. Quoting _your_ link: > [@](#): > > The Spiritual Science Research Foundation appears to be a bunch of nits who attempt to put a scientific face on spirituality and the like. Now sure, the website looks slick and well presented, but don’t let that fool you. Dig just slightly under the surface and you’ll unearth a veritable cornucopia of pseudoscience quackery. and(here is advice you should really take to heart) > [@](#): > > Anyway, go and delve through the topics yourself. You’re bound to find something to raise a giggle at least. Someone should point out to them however that just because you make it look authoritative, doesn’t make it so. If you want to be taken seriously on a scientific level, cite your sources, don’t just make shit up! ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/113 "2014-08-12T14:50:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I would say especially this one. Quoting _your_ link: and(here is advice you should really take to heart) When you fish, you catch many differing things; the search for knowledge is not confined to things which just suite your taste; its a banquet out there; a feast, and science needs to eat more spirit; fish in that spot. [http://www.scienceofthespirit.org/](http://www.scienceofthespirit.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/114 "2014-08-12T14:54:45Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Even the Toledot Yeshu offers keys; > > [Toledot Yeshu - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu) Are you just throwing up random links that have nothing to do with the topic, just like you did with your last thread? What exactly does the Toledot Yeshu have to do with what the topic of this thread is about?? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/115 "2014-08-12T14:56:48Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > When you fish, you catch many differing things; the search for knowledge is not confined to things which just suite your taste; its a banquet out there; a feast, and science needs to eat more spirit; fish in that spot. > > [http://www.scienceofthespirit.org/](http://www.scienceofthespirit.org/) I’ve already got a quote book at home. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/116 "2014-08-12T15:07:52Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Yet consciousness is passed on; which in my view proves that consciousness is a given; it is provided by an outside source. . Livers are also passed on from generation to generation. By your logic, then, livers cannot come from genetics; they must be magically bestowed by an outside source. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/117 "2014-08-12T15:09:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you just throwing up random links that have nothing to do with the topic, just like you did with your last thread? What exactly does the Toledot Yeshu have to do with what the topic of this thread is about?? Its a book written by people who were not Christians, but they validated the life of Jesus; which validates the bible, from which I surmise my theory on Primordial man and consciousness. You requested " Other books", I gave some. Now you question why. Its as if you argue just for the sake of argument. Science can reveal spirit, IF they choose to; but they fear the answers. Which is why I got into the topic on another thread; > **[Can Science Reveal God? - Spiritual Forums](http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25279)** > > Can Science Reveal God? Science & Spirituality Can science reveal God? Well if science is a search for truth, then eventually it will reveal God. Its academic. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/118 "2014-08-12T15:18:12Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Can science reveal God? Well if science is a search for truth, then eventually it will reveal God. Its academic. Is this the actual topic of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/119 "2014-08-12T15:31:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is this the actual topic of this thread? The topic of thread is as plainly stated, but I will answer all questions and entertain the different direction of others as they participate; but concerning you; its obvious that no matter what I discuss, or how I discuss it, you will be against it. Your going to rail against whatever I say, or however I say it. And that’s fine, you have not changed; its your way. And I am not against that way; I understand its how you are primed. Eventually you will discover, it does not matter how you respond or what you say; I have something for you. And I will always have something. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247/120 "2014-08-12T15:31:55Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Straight Dope needs to provide a dictionary on site, I never seen so many people requesting the definitions of simple terms. You do realize, don’t you, that people are NOT asking “what do the terms conventionally mean,” but are questioning the highly idiosyncratic meanings you seem to be imputing to the terms you are using. I think you are a nice\* person. \*I reserve the right to redefine “nice” to my own idiosyncratic definition and not tell anyone else in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-primordial-man-conscious/695247.md?page=7)