Was Proof of Precognition Found?

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
<snip>in these dreams he was shown:
-the building of a new city in Brazil (the capital Brasila), which was not built until 1958! (Fr. Bosco had this dream ca. 1880)
-the Saliesian schools in Boston, NYC, and Los Angeles ( again , long before a the first Saliesian priest ever set foot in the USA).
-a horrific dream of WWI-Fr. Bosco experienced this dream over 20 years before WWI broke out
[/QUOTE]

Assuming these dreams were all cases of pre-cognition, how would it apply to th OP? Potential passengers checking the dream journal of 19th century Italian monks before flying home for the Holidays?

I’ve had several experiences that seemed like precognition. Pretty weird stuff.

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
So, do some people have the ability to peer beyond the veil of time?
[/QUOTE]
Dunno about you, but if I had the ability to predict things, even with a 5% improvement over chance, I would be on the next plane to Vegas to get rich.

This thread will run to 37 posts then fizzle out.

However, this question itself will be correctly answered on May 5th, 2008, by a young man called Brian Cartwright, who will unfortunately not have predicted his own death the same day, in a freak blimp accident.

Once when I was in college, a woman whom my mother hadn’t seen in several years called in a panic: she’d had a dream that I’d been hospitalized in an accident. And the really weird part was: I was in bed asleep at the time, perfectly healthy. A couple of times I’ve received phone calls from people who “just had a feeling” that I was ill or unhappy or whatever-also wrong.

We’ve discussed this in another thread, but most people will have hundreds of thousands of “prophetic” dreams over a lifetime. No one remembers the ones that where the “prediction” doesn’t come true. Given this large number of inputs, if NO dreams (or other visions) correctly predicted the future (by coincidence), I think that would actually be stronger evidence of a paranormal phenomenon.

I’ve had dreams that felt like precognition but after applying some critical thought I just dismissed them.

[QUOTE=Cervaise]
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say “no.”
[/QUOTE]

I’ll go you one better: I have a very strong psychic feeling about this, so I predict that proof of precognition will never be found. :smiley:

[QUOTE=Fish]
I’ll go you one better: I have a very strong psychic feeling about this, so I predict that proof of precognition will never be found. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

I don’t really think any large scale studies have been done. I seem to recall a show hosted by Arthor C Clark, where a study tended to show that it was a real phenominom, yet it was something that happened to people, not something the people could control. That mimics my experiences. That’s still way short of “definitive proof” though.

[QUOTE=glee]
Assuming precognition exists, why not just ask people to tell you when they get it?
[/QUOTE]

Because it’s futile.

[QUOTE=rhettro]
That’s still way short of “definitive proof” though.
[/QUOTE]

There, you see? Precognition doesn’t exist! That means my prediction was correct, so precognition exists. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
Fr. Bosco had a huge number of very vivid dreams-in these dreams he was shown:
-the building of a new city in Brazil (the capital Brasila), which was not built until 1958! (Fr. Bosco had this dream ca. 1880)

[/QUOTE]

I am trying to get my head around how this particular one might indicate precognition. If you wait long enough, surely someone will build a new city in Brazil whether you predict it or not. Am I missing something? In fact, right now, I am predicting that a new city will be built in Brazil at some point in the future.

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
I quite agree, for precognition to exist (in truth) would require a complete rewriting of the laws of Physics. i don’t know how anyone could sense future events, unless;
-the future is pre-ordained
-OR, certain individuals ahve the ability to influence events
I think that what is called “precognition” might actually be the second case: if we accept that complex events (like the movement of the stock market) result from the gyrations of unstable systems (ht e “butterflies wings” effect, could it be possible that small acts may cause huge outcomes?
take the airplane crash scenario: a person receives a premonition that the air flight he is going to take will crash. he communicates his fear to the flight attendent (unconsciously). She becomes concerned, and decides to order a second cabin check-and it is found that the main door is not sealing correctly-the captain calls a mechanic to check the door-and the mechanic reports that the door would have blown open at altitude, causing a crash!
Is this an explanation of “precognition”?
[/QUOTE]

There might be another simpler way… what if the Universe and time is nothing but repeating patterns. (Which, truthfully, it is.) Maybe we, as nonseperate from the universe, all matter of the same, have some degree of innate perception that recognizes the future in a pattern.

Maybe that is extrasensory perception, very simply, attunement and reflexive crystallization. I say rexflexive crystallization because that’s the best analogy I can think of to explain it. As we line up to the pattern, the pattern lines up to us and Bam!-- A wave of crystallization…an organic awareness. And in that seed crystal is a self contained time line-- Now, Then, and Before, nondelineated.

[QUOTE=devilsknew]
There might be another simpler way… what if the Universe and time is nothing but repeating patterns. (Which, truthfully, it is.)
[/quote]
I love when I get to do this…

Cite?

[QUOTE=devilsknew]
Maybe we, as nonseperate from the universe, all matter of the same, have some degree of innate perception that recognizes the future in a pattern.
[/quote]
Maybe. But only with a really hot cup of tea.

[QUOTE=devilsknew]
Maybe that is extrasensory perception, very simply, attunement and reflexive crystallization. I say rexflexive crystallization because that’s the best analogy I can think of to explain it.
[/quote]
And what a fine, crystal-clear analogy it is! (get it, huh? “crystal”, huh? huh?)

[QUOTE=devilsknew]
As we line up to the pattern, the pattern lines up to us and Bam!-- A wave of crystallization…an organic awareness. And in that seed crystal is a self contained time line-- Now, Then, and Before, nondelineated.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, since it’s forbidden to discuss the possibility that you are some kind of [specification deleted], may I instead ask what particular kind of substance you appear to have ingested?

(Oh, and you owe Emeril a royalty payment)

The box says no.

[QUOTE=glee]
Assuming precognition exists, why not just ask people to tell you when they get it?
[/QUOTE]
In my teen years, I had a number of experiences that felt like precognition (all of which, I now think, can actually be adequately explained by selection bias and pure, although quite astonishing, coincidence).

Thing is, I would never know it was happening; I’d be sitting idly thinking about something and it would later play out in the way I’d daydreamed it, or I’d be singing a song to myself and turn on the radio to find it was being played on air at that moment, but because the nature of these things was that they seemed to come out of an unfocused state of mind, it would never occur to me to say anything until after they were manifest.

I’m pretty sure that’s how selection bias works though - only the ‘oh wows’ are remembered, not the ‘eh, never minds’. At the time though, I’d have probably argued that either:
-It only happens when I’m unfocused, so I simply can’t tell you when I get it.
-Snapping to awareness that it was a precognition must somehow adversely prejudice the events so as to render it false.

I’ll be pleased to discuss any of this in greater detail if anyone would like me to, but please don’t take me to task over it; as I have said, I think this was just one of my youthful imaginations; I do not currently consider myself to have any supernatural precognitive talents.

[QUOTE=delphica]
I am trying to get my head around how this particular one might indicate precognition. If you wait long enough, surely someone will build a new city in Brazil whether you predict it or not. Am I missing something? In fact, right now, I am predicting that a new city will be built in Brazil at some point in the future.
[/QUOTE]

No, Fr. Boso’s dream was much more comprehensive. his dream predicted the exact position (latitude/longitude) of the new city of Brasilia. How he came by this (in 1889) is a mystery.

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
No, Fr. Boso’s dream was much more comprehensive. his dream predicted the exact position (latitude/longitude) of the new city of Brasilia. How he came by this (in 1889) is a mystery.
[/QUOTE]

Where and how were these dreams documented?

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
No, Fr. Boso’s dream was much more comprehensive. his dream predicted the exact position (latitude/longitude) of the new city of Brasilia. How he came by this (in 1889) is a mystery.
[/QUOTE]

Did he have any dreams that didn’t come true?

[QUOTE=devilsknew]
There might be another simpler way… what if the Universe and time is nothing but repeating patterns. (Which, truthfully, it is.) Maybe we, as nonseperate from the universe, all matter of the same, have some degree of innate perception that recognizes the future in a pattern.

Maybe that is extrasensory perception, very simply, attunement and reflexive crystallization. I say rexflexive crystallization because that’s the best analogy I can think of to explain it. As we line up to the pattern, the pattern lines up to us and Bam!-- A wave of crystallization…an organic awareness. And in that seed crystal is a self contained time line-- Now, Then, and Before, nondelineated.
[/QUOTE]

Um, yeah. I cant make a lot of sense out of this, since you seem to be using words with meanings other than the ones found in the dictionary, but let me take a crack at what I think you’re saying:

(Attempted re-write of devilsknew’s position): Assume the universe is deterministic (if you knew the current state of every particle, you could predict it’s entire future course). Therefore we can predict the future based on those particles in and around us, or else intuit the direction things are going in because we have a lot of information already. (End attempted re-write).

Stated very simply, if we drop a rock, we can predict with very high accuracy that it will hit the ground – while it’s still in the air. If we have been told that a family member is going to visit tomorrow, we can predict with a lesser degree of accuracy that they will pass through our door the next day. We can predict things like the sun coming up and the moon’s phases based on our knowledge of their last positions and previous “actions.”

But these aren’t the types of precognition we’re talking about here, although pre-information could explain a lot of supposedly precognitive dreams (oh, I forgot you told me Aunt Gertrude was sick).

We’re talking about predicting things that are distincly NOT the normal pattern of day to day life, from a distance and without previous information. More bluntly put, we’re talking about what psychics claim to be able to do: predict details of the future using pseudoscientific or supernatural means.

The test is simple: have “precogs” write down their predictions ahead of time. If they can “tell” they’re having a precognitive episode, so much the better – we should expect 100% of their predictions to come true. If not, then it hardly matters (since the ability is useless if you don’t know when you’re using it), but if they write down ALL of their dreams/visions/hallucinations/whatever, they should achieve better than chance (and control groups) at predicting things.

This needs to happen over repeated trials, with different people controlling the study, and with the definition of a “match” agreed upon ahead of time. But it’s not hard, so let me know when someone’s actually done it and found results.

[QUOTE=TimeWinder]
Um, yeah. I cant make a lot of sense out of this, since you seem to be using words with meanings other than the ones found in the dictionary, but let me take a crack at what I think you’re saying:

(Attempted re-write of devilsknew’s position): Assume the universe is deterministic (if you knew the current state of every particle, you could predict it’s entire future course). Therefore we can predict the future based on those particles in and around us, or else intuit the direction things are going in because we have a lot of information already. (End attempted re-write).

Stated very simply, if we drop a rock, we can predict with very high accuracy that it will hit the ground – while it’s still in the air. If we have been told that a family member is going to visit tomorrow, we can predict with a lesser degree of accuracy that they will pass through our door the next day. We can predict things like the sun coming up and the moon’s phases based on our knowledge of their last positions and previous “actions.”

But these aren’t the types of precognition we’re talking about here, although pre-information could explain a lot of supposedly precognitive dreams (oh, I forgot you told me Aunt Gertrude was sick).

We’re talking about predicting things that are distincly NOT the normal pattern of day to day life, from a distance and without previous information. More bluntly put, we’re talking about what psychics claim to be able to do: predict details of the future using pseudoscientific or supernatural means.

The test is simple: have “precogs” write down their predictions ahead of time. If they can “tell” they’re having a precognitive episode, so much the better – we should expect 100% of their predictions to come true. If not, then it hardly matters (since the ability is useless if you don’t know when you’re using it), but if they write down ALL of their dreams/visions/hallucinations/whatever, they should achieve better than chance (and control groups) at predicting things.

This needs to happen over repeated trials, with different people controlling the study, and with the definition of a “match” agreed upon ahead of time. But it’s not hard, so let me know when someone’s actually done it and found results.
[/QUOTE]

Whateveh… if you want to define the skeptik’s position and lack of innovation as such.

I’m talking about something much more lucid. My cite:
Bioinformation

Morphic or Morphogenetic Fields or Sheldrakian Universe

Ah, but he is the Galileo nemesis to the Randiites.