# Was Richard Nixon That Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508 "2010-03-06T04:49:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/41 "2010-03-06T23:13:31Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > …I voted for Obama and I’ve come to think that I’m just another idiot. :o Well, you know what they say. Recognizing your mistake is half the battle. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/42 "2010-03-06T23:19:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, you know what they say. Recognizing your mistake is half the battle. 😃 It was either him and whathisname, or McCain and Palin. It was either one who claimed he would alter the things I was less than thrilled with, or the one who said he wanted to maintain the status quo. Also, I definitely did not want Palin to be “one heartbeat away from the presidency”. Not that I dislked McCain. Despite whatever political or philosophical differences, I sort of like him. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/43 "2010-03-06T23:36:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, you know what they say. Recognizing your mistake is half the battle. 😃 And you recognizing yours would be the other half. Too much too ask? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/44 "2010-03-06T23:41:22Z")
Mistake? Moi? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/45 "2010-03-07T01:12:44Z")
> [@](#): > > The world might have been a better place had Watergate been revealed say twenty years later when people could treat it more objectively and less emotionally. My jaw actually dropped when I read this. Objectively speaking, Nixon was guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors and deserved to be impeached and removed from office. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/46 "2010-03-07T02:50:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > My jaw actually dropped when I read this. Objectively speaking, Nixon was guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors and deserved to be impeached and removed from office. Indeed. Shades of “If the president does it it’s not illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/47 "2010-03-07T02:54:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It seems that you are saying that the death of about 2 million Vietnamese and 47,000 American US soldiers was even less than just an statistic. No, the same thing would not have happened. > > The pentagon papers showed that the US government was aware that the communists would win if the Vietnamese would had given the chance to vote for reunification, the USA supported the leader of South Vietnam when he decided to dump the reunification vote that was recommended by the same Geneva Accords that created South Vietnam. Had South Vietnam survived the tough years of the 1970s it might have slowly stablized and prospered along with the other Asian tiger economies, > [@DocCathode](#): > > My jaw actually dropped when I read this. Objectively speaking, Nixon was guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors and deserved to be impeached and removed from office. Jackson also violated the oath of office by not imposing the court orders of the _Worcestor V. Georgia_ case and Grant or Harding were equally corrupt and Kennedy engaged in vote stealing (see one of my above posts) yet no one gets too worked up with that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/48 "2010-03-07T02:58:11Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Had South Vietnam survived the tough years of the 1970s it might have slowly stablized and prospered along with the other Asian tiger economies, And I want a pony too. Really, your style of moving the goal posts and then claiming that you made a point is getting silly. The point still stands when you refuse to deal with it. The same thing would not have happened. And you can only continue by ignoring the actual history. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/49 "2010-03-07T03:06:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And I want a pony too. > > Really, your style of moving the goal posts and then claiming that you made a point is getting silly. The point still stands when you refuse to deal with it. The same thing would not have happened. And you can only continue by ignoring the actual history. I am merely engaging in plausible alternate history speculation posited from the trends of the '70s. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/50 "2010-03-07T03:11:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Jackson also violated the oath of office by not imposing the court orders of the _Worcestor V. Georgia_ case and Grant or Harding were equally corrupt and Kennedy engaged in vote stealing (see one of my above posts) yet no one gets too worked up with that. Isn’t this basically, “Yeah, but HE did it, too!”? That doesn’t excuse what Nixon did. Saying that people shouldn’t have known about Watergate until after it happens is kind of like assuming that Nixon knew best just because he was president, and that he had the right to decide what the country needed to know. But that very act violated the trust the people had in him and in the government. Keeping it secret for twenty years would have just sent out the message that the government gets to do whatever it wants, however illegal. How is that different from a corrupt despot doing whatever he wishes? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/51 "2010-03-07T03:14:35Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Indeed. Shades of “If the president does it it’s not illegal.” I believe he only came up with that toward the end when it became obvious that he was about to lose his presidency. It was a sad, desperate attempt to find some way to hang on to office. If Nixon had truly believed that anything he did as president was therefore legal, he’d have trotted it out to justify various of the actions and policies of his presidency long before and quite apart from Watergate. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/52 "2010-03-07T03:16:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am merely engaging in plausible alternate history speculation posited from the trends of the '70s. That was **implausible** , a very sizable number of the population in South Vietnam was in favor of unification if not in favor of the Communists. You are ignoring several trends in Vietnam and in the USA in an effort to make your views fit into that implausible history. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/53 "2010-03-07T03:33:42Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Isn’t this basically, “Yeah, but HE did it, too!”? That doesn’t excuse what Nixon did. Saying that people shouldn’t have known about Watergate until after it happens is kind of like assuming that Nixon knew best just because he was president, and that he had the right to decide what the country needed to know. But that very act violated the trust the people had in him and in the government. Keeping it secret for twenty years would have just sent out the message that the government gets to do whatever it wants, however illegal. How is that different from a corrupt despot doing whatever he wishes? We wouldn’t have had Ford as President, a good intentioned but weak President and instead have three more years of Nixon as a powerful and vigourous President. In '76 we would have been spared Carter’s election and perhaps even seen Ronald Reagan four years earlier. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That was **implausible** , a very sizable number of the population in South Vietnam was in favor of unification if not in favor of the Communists. You are ignoring several trends in Vietnam and in the USA in an effort to make your views fit into that implausible history. A sizeable amount wanted Communism, yes but the majority of Vietnamese peasants just wanted a decent life and they thought the Reds would offer it. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/54 "2010-03-07T03:38:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I believe he only came up with that toward the end when it became obvious that he was about to lose his presidency. It was a sad, desperate attempt to find some way to hang on to office. What? He said that after he had already resigned from the presidency during the Frost interviews. It showed that not only did he refuse to apologize for the blatant abuses of power (that you seem to be excusing in part and completely overlooking in part), but that he was in denial that he did anything wrong in the first place. He would probably say that the only thing he did wrong was get caught, which is completely unacceptable from anyone with any degree of responsibility, let alone the highest. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/55 "2010-03-07T03:46:31Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I am merely engaging in plausible alternate history speculation posited from the trends of the '70s. The only plausible way South Vietnam would have survived as a political entity was if US troops stayed there indefinitely. This would have either caused massive and sustained civil unrest in the US as well as the continuation of the draft - possibly leading to open revolt, or the election of a politician who would have made peace at any cost in order to withdraw US forces. Either way, US forces could not stay indefinitely and there is no plausible scenario in which South Vietnam could continue existing given Vietcong infiltration and the North Vietnamese offensives. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/56 "2010-03-07T03:58:23Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > perhaps even seen Ronald Reagan four years earlier [Nixon on Tape: Reagan Was “Shallow” and of “Limited Mental Capacity”](http://motherjones.com/mojo/2007/11/nixon-tape-reagan-was-shallow-and-limited-mental-capacity) > [@](#): > > President Nixon: What’s your evaluation of Reagan after meeting him several times now. > > Kissinger: Well, I think he’s a–actually I think he’s a pretty decent guy. > > President Nixon: Oh, decent, no question, but his brains > > Kissinger: Well, his brains, are negligible. I– > > President Nixon: He’s really pretty shallow, Henry. > > Kissinger: He’s shallow. He’s got no…he’s an actor. He–When he gets a line he does it very well. He said, “Hell, people are remembered not for what they do, but for what they say. Can’t you find a few good lines?” [Chuckles.] That’s really an actor’s approach to foreign policy–to substantive… > > President Nixon: I’ve said a lot of good things, too, you know damn well. > > Kissinger: Well, that too. > > Later in the 24-minute-long discussion, the two discussed the possibility of Reagan running for president: > > President Nixon: Can you think though, Henry, can you think, though, that Reagan with certain forces running in the direction could be sitting right here? > > Kissinger: Inconceivable. > > So much for Kissinger’s powers of prognostication. As they were finishing up–after discussing other matters–Nixon slammed Reagan again: > > President Nixon: Back to Reagan though. It shows you how a man of limited mental capacity simply doesn’t know what the Christ is going on in the foreign area. He’s got to know that on defense–doesn’t he know these battles we fight and fight and fight? Goddamn it, Henry, we’ve been at– Nixon had to go down, and shatter the party as he went before Reagan could have any chance of handing the party to the southern christians. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/57 "2010-03-07T04:01:32Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Jackson also violated the oath of office by not imposing the court orders of the _Worcestor V. Georgia_ case and Grant or Harding were equally corrupt and Kennedy engaged in vote stealing (see one of my above posts) yet no one gets too worked up with that. Well, start a “Was Warren Harding That Bad” thread and see what happens. This thread is about Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/58 "2010-03-07T04:02:55Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Nixon on Tape: Reagan Was “Shallow” and of “Limited Mental Capacity”](http://motherjones.com/mojo/2007/11/nixon-tape-reagan-was-shallow-and-limited-mental-capacity) Nixon had to go down, and shatter the party as he went before Reagan could have any chance of handing the party to the southern christians. Nixon was not emperor of the Republican Party and who else the Republicans have in '76 or '80 other than the Northern liberals? George HW Bush hadn’t risen to national prominence by '76 for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/59 "2010-03-07T04:03:34Z")
> [@Henry Kissinger](#): > > Inconceivable. That word you keep using. I don’t think it means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508/60 "2010-03-07T04:11:57Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > What? He said that after he had already resigned from the presidency during the Frost interviews. I thought I remembered it being said during the waning days of his presidency too. But I’m not wedded to the notion to the point of arguing about it. It was still something said in an effort to justify actions that had no other justification at the time and not a cornerstone of his actions in office. > [@Camus](#): > > It showed that not only did he refuse to apologize for the blatant abuses of power (that you seem to be excusing in part and completely overlooking in part), but that he was in denial that he did anything wrong in the first place. If he was in denial about it why would he apologize? You’re accusing him of two conflicting things here, either one of which would obviate the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-richard-nixon-that-bad/531508.md?page=4)