# Was Rihanna just as abusive Chris Brown? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 16, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524 "2009-12-16T20:25:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524/41 "2009-12-17T20:33:17Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I tend to side with Chris Rock on this score. There’s a reason to throw an old man down a flight of stairs. Just don’t do it. Some people deserve to be beaten and gender wouldn’t enter into it. Self defense is one such example. And baby murderers – mostly women – deserve whatever psychological abuse they get on a daily basis from conscience or prison or whatever. > > I also think beatings are a good early-life lesson in appropriate behavior. If a guy walks around like a flaming asshole all day long and someone gets sick of it and throws him a beating, that’s what I call a teaching moment. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Sir yes sir! Apologies for straying out of rigid lockstep with your feminist dogma. We must have momentarily forgotten that every woman on the face of the earth is a shining beacon of loving perfection. This is a clear gender divide. Boys grow up knowing (or learning quickly) that you do not fuck with guys who could or would kick your ass. This means you show them respect when you interact with them. Girls never need to learn this because society dictates that nobody should ever hit them, and everybody deserves respect anyway. This is one way that men and women are clearly unequal, though it could just be a cultural thing. From a male’s perspective, nobody deserves respect; respect is earned by each individual. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Those were unrelated responses. As to the idea of hitting somebody who pisses you off, well, at worst I think it merits maybe a small fine or a little community service. A misdemeanor, I guess. > > And you have it backwards, by the way. It’s my responsibility as the smaller guy not to piss off the bigger guy. (At 6’0" and 150lbs, I’m not beating up anybody.) I’m guessing this is an attitude women either don’t share or find repugnant. As a guy, I find it to be perfectly natural. See that big huge pissed off looking dude in the corner? Give him a wide berth and be respectful. That little obnoxious pissant in the corner? If the dirty look doesn’t quiet him down, well, some day he’ll learn the hard way. Maybe by me. Maybe the big guy in the corner, or maybe in a couple weeks _somebody_ will learn him. Wow. Just…wow. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524/42 "2009-12-17T20:51:49Z")
I think what **Ellis Dee** was trying to say (and failing) is that guys, likely more than girls, learn at a young age not to push the buttons of people larger and stronger. Many men will outgrow the schoolyard “might makes right” etiquette (hopefully by late middle school), but we still are conditioned, for the most part, to avoid the situation where we might find the one guy who didn’t outgrow it. No one deserves to get the shit beaten out of them. That doesn’t mean that no one deserves to never be hit. Chronic abusers, male and female, may just goad the battered partner into striking so that they can claim defense. I’ve never been on either side of that, so I don’t know. I have, however, met some people who are apparently going through life seeing how much they can piss everyone around them off, and do their damnedest to push everyone’s buttons just to see how far their victim will go. Some jurisdictions may (IANAL) recognize that the receiver of a punch provoked it. We don’t live in a fantasy world with _Care Bears_ and _My Little Pony_. Fights can be verbally instigated, even if one does not throw the first blow. This is gender-neutral. I don’t follow celebrity news. I only hear about things like this when it makes it into the top of the newshour, and I don’t go looking for more details. So I don’t know anything beyond the link above. Even if Rihanna was someone who continually provoked Brown, what he did was beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524/43 "2009-12-17T20:52:25Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > And you have it backwards, by the way. It’s my responsibility as the smaller guy not to piss off the bigger guy. (At 6’0" and 150lbs, I’m not beating up anybody.) I’m guessing this is an attitude women either don’t share or find repugnant. As a guy, I find it to be perfectly natural. See that big huge pissed off looking dude in the corner? Give him a wide berth and be respectful. That little obnoxious pissant in the corner? If the dirty look doesn’t quiet him down, well, some day he’ll learn the hard way. Maybe by me. Maybe the big guy in the corner, or maybe in a couple weeks _somebody_ will learn him. But are you hoping to marry this guy one day? Does he write you poetry, make sweet love to you? This isn’t just picking on someone smaller than you, it’s hurting the one you’re supposed to love the most. And yes, some women walk on eggshells around their abusers and some, including abused children, seem to get a sick pleasure out of being on the receiving end of pain. Doesn’t make it right. Maybe it is just my crazy feminist agenda (:rolleyes:), but the OP asked a question and AFAIK we can only answer that no, it has never been mentioned in the media that she was an abuser, and yes, it is a possibility. The OP asked if anyone questioned her being just as abusive as him, and as I indicated many didn’t ask that specifically but wondered how she ‘made’ him violent or what she did to set him off. Which doesn’t say great things about domestic violence and perceptions of it in the US. Like ‘traditional’ DV, female-on-male domestic violence is complicated and unfunny, though I don’t think it’s involved in this case (and may not be involved in Tiger Woods’ case either – and that horrible SNL sketch was pretty damned offensive). Some victims suffer in silence, some seem to be part of mutually abusive couples, only one member is usually a lot stronger. Chris Brown’s behavior seems so textbook it’s a wonder we’re not hearing this from Rihanna ten years in the future in an autobiography. I’m not sure there’s that much more to say about this case (unless Chris Brown makes another lame plea for forgiveness), but for anyone interested in a terrifyingly intimate look at DV check out HBO’s [Every F–king Day of My Life](http://jezebel.com/5426520/every-f-ing-day-of-my-life-one-day-of-violence-is-one-day-too-many). ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524/44 "2009-12-17T21:11:37Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > I think what **Ellis Dee** was trying to say (and failing) is that guys, likely more than girls, learn at a young age not to push the buttons of people larger and stronger. Many men will outgrow the schoolyard “might makes right” etiquette (hopefully by late middle school), but we still are conditioned, for the most part, to avoid the situation where we might find the one guy who didn’t outgrow it. But that’s just it. Women are on average smaller than men. Everyone I’ve been with has been smaller than me. Are you saying that I’m supposed to try not to piss off a guy because he might just get fed up of dealing with it? I find this attitude really creepy. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524/45 "2009-12-17T21:44:30Z")
My wild uninformed guess is that Rihanna has issues that don’t come out in public. Has to maintain image and all. That said, neither one has the right to assault each other whatever the reason. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524/46 "2009-12-17T21:53:46Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Might as well close this thread, its only going one way, yet a-fucking-gain. Sorry, I thought your [concerns](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11895578&postcount=5) were [addressed](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11895763&postcount=6). Was there something else? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524/47 "2009-12-17T22:37:34Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I don’t want to turn this into a thread about _me_, but I’ve been through it and the fascinating thing it did to my ability to make decisions was it made me decide that that wasn’t going to be happening to me again. I know everyone’s experiences are different; I feel deeply sad for women who \*cannot \*get away. I guess I just wanted to point out that some women _do_. Also, I \*am \*speaking specifically about this case, not domestic violence in general. I’m sorry, and good for you. I appreciate the correction, since it isn’t something I’ve experienced, and you’re right. It’s just as silly for me to suggest that a victim can’t ever take control of the situation as it would be to suggest that the situation is the victim’s fault, and I don’t mean to do that. > [@D\_Odds](#): > > Some jurisdictions may (IANAL) recognize that the receiver of a punch provoked it. We don’t live in a fantasy world with Care Bears and My Little Pony. Fights can be verbally instigated, even if one does not throw the first blow. This is gender-neutral. No, not really. The list of things that a person can do to another person that do not involve violence or the threat of violence but which can constitute a legal justification for an assault is, well, not very long. “She was asking for it” isn’t a defense that tends to get anywhere. The law tends to recognize the same rule as, say, a kindergarten does on this particular point: I don’t care what they were doing, we don’t hit each other. ---
**Author:** ![Eternal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524/48 "2009-12-18T08:54:11Z")
The big problem in the pragmatist argument, and the moralist argument, is the idea that anyone ever deserves anything. Or doesn’t deserve anything. People don’t get what’s coming to them, they just get or don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rihanna-just-as-abusive-chris-brown/521524.md?page=2)