# Was rock really dead in 1959-64? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 14, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762 "2014-01-14T04:20:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/41 "2014-01-16T17:19:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > [That’s the name of the place](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVJZKb9SCLA)! Touche’! For added fun, excitement and thrills pick your favorite(s) from [Number One Songs - School year 1960/1961](http://bchs1961.org/songs1961/www.bobborst.com/popculture/number-one-songs-by-year/songs.html) ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/42 "2014-01-16T18:49:09Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The idea that rock was dead is just flat out stupid. [Listen to the lyrics man!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egmIP5BkqPI) It will NEVER DIE! I know you’re being funny, but that song is actually evidence that some people thought rock and roll was a fad. Otherwise, why make the argument that they’re wrong? It’s also evidence of how little range Danny and the Juniors had. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/43 "2014-01-16T18:53:21Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The man who saved rock: [Lonnie Donegan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Donegan). (I wonder how many people here have even heard of him.) I have. I got to hear my wife agonizing over whether or not to play “Rock Island Line” for her class last week. (“It’s his most famous song! But it’s not really the best example of skiffle! Argh! I can’t decide!”) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/44 "2014-01-16T19:21:45Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I know you’re being funny, but that song is actually evidence that some people thought rock and roll was a fad. Otherwise, why make the argument that they’re wrong? > > It’s also evidence of how little range Danny and the Juniors had. I think the idea that rock was a fad was used to defend it against those who called it the Devil’s music. They would say not to worry, the kids will move on to something else after a while. I don’t know if that song specifically was a reaction to that or not though. I have to agree somewhat with the general premise that without the Beatles or some other group advancing the genre it might have died. It ain’t exactly healthy today. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/45 "2014-01-16T19:30:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I think the idea that rock was a fad was used to defend it against those who called it the Devil’s music. They would say not to worry, the kids will move on to something else after a while. I don’t know if that song specifically was a reaction to that or not though. > > I have to agree somewhat with the general premise that without the Beatles or some other group advancing the genre it might have died. It ain’t exactly healthy today. Rock is nearly dead but metal is fucking THRIVING. And frankly, some of the lamer, tamer metal bands are quickly becoming more like rock bands. They find a market there and so rock and roll is kept alive by those not brutal enough to be metal but not wimpy enough to be pop music. [Avenged Sevenfold is a perfect example](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DelhLppPSxY). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/46 "2014-01-16T20:49:44Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Bob Dylan made one little noted nor long remembered venture into [rave-up rock ‘n’ roll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-Up_Confusion) in 1962, three years before he officially “went electric.” Dylan played rock in Minnesota before he moved to New York. Folk was a lot more commercial in the Village, and there was his idolization of Woody. Dylan really went back to rock. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/47 "2014-01-16T20:53:50Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > To show how bankrupt things were, this was the era where a large number of novelty songs made it to #1. Alley Oop in 1960, Monster Mash in 1962, Purple People Eater in 1957 (OK, that’s a little early), Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny in 1960. etc. etc. I was around then, and I was going to say exactly this. There was also The Name Game, Witch Doctor, the Battle of New Orleans, the Battle of Camp Cuckamonga and a ton more. I liked the Four Seasons, but it was hardly the same. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/48 "2014-01-16T21:00:38Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Beatles saved Rock. > > I was there! I saw them apply the paddles! > > Seriously, I was there. I watched Ed Sullivan that fateful night. I talked about The Beatles at lunch every day. We had never, ever done that before with anybody else’s music. The world changed like a switch was thrown. > > Were individual songs and artists great in the previous five years? Sure, lots and lots of them. But Rock was sure sick, if not actually dead. All the excitement had moved up the chain to folk and jazz, which attracted an older, college crowd. That’s niche music. Popular, influential, acclaimed, but not defining society. They were publicly dumped in the nation’s affection within seconds of The Beatles’ arrival (and they hated them for it). > > Check the Billboard charts for the 1960s. Instead of a few good songs and 95% dreck, post-Beatles there were dozens of good songs and 50% dreck. Sturgeon’s Law got a kick in the teeth for a few years. Money poured in. From a sleazy business of shady independent operators, Rock attracted huge corporations who could offer millions. (Whether that was a good thing or not is somewhat debatable, but part of saving Rock means creating a proper industry rather than a flea market.) Rock defined everything new and redefined everything old. It became immortal instead of ephemeral. > > Yeah, The Beatles saved Rock. Or they created Rock out of Rock ‘n’ Roll, a different beast. They are every bit as important as their most extravagant admirers claim. How rare is that? I was there also. Notice how before the Beatles lots of “stars” were the children of celebs - Frank Sinatra’s daughter, Dean Martin’s son, Ricky Nelson (the exception with talent). After the Beatles groups looked like the Beatles. Groups found they had to write their own songs, not import them from Tin Pan Alley. Pre-Beatles comedians were disdainful of Rock - Stan Freberg is a good example. It took a while, but I remember a lot more respect for Rock post-Beatles. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/49 "2014-01-16T21:11:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Dylan played rock in Minnesota before he moved to New York. True enough; IIRC he cited Little Richard as his main influence during his pre-folk days. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/50 "2014-01-16T23:09:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Pre-Beatles comedians were disdainful of Rock - Stan Freberg is a good example. There is also this deeply weird comment from Sinatra in 1957: > [@](#): > > “My only deep sorrow is the unrelenting insistence of recording and motion picture companies upon purveying the most brutal, ugly, degenerate, vicious form of expression it has been my displeasure to hear—Naturally I refer to the bulk of rock ’n’ roll. > > “It fosters almost totally negative and destructive reactions in young people. It smells phony and false. It is sung, played and written for the most part by cretinous goons and by means of its almost imbecilic reiterations and sly, lewd—in plain fact, dirty—lyrics, and as I said before, it manages to be the martial music of every sideburned delinquent on the face of the earth … this rancid-smelling aphorodisiac I deplore.” How about Mitch Miller, the uber-powerful A&R head of Columbia Records? > [@](#): > > ``` > “Rock ‘n’ roll is musical baby food: it is the worship of mediocrity, brought about by a passion for conformity.” > “It’s not music, it’s a disease.” > “The reason kids like rock ‘n roll is their parents don’t." > “[Teenagers] seem to accept almost any form of [rock 'n' roll], even the lowest and most distasteful. It seems to encourage sloppy clothes. The kids take it all without discrimination. It’s one step from fascism.” > > ``` Or William F. Buckley? > [@](#): > > “The Beatles are not merely awful, I would consider it sacrilegious to say anything less than that they are godawful. They are so unbelievably horrible, so appallingly unmusical, so dogmatically insensitive to the magic of the art, that they qualify as crowned heads of anti-music.” That was 1964. He seems to have shut up after that, maybe around the time that Sinatra started covering rock songs and Miller got fired from Columbia. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/51 "2014-01-16T23:25:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > How about Mitch Miller, the uber-powerful A&R head of Columbia Records? > > > [@](#): > > > > “Rock ‘n’ roll is musical baby food: it is the worship of mediocrity, brought about by a passion for conformity.” > > [snip] > > It’s one step from fascism.” Funny stuff from a guy whose shtick was “Sing Along with Me.” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/52 "2014-01-17T05:36:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I was there also. Notice how before the Beatles lots of “stars” were the children of celebs - Frank Sinatra’s daughter, Dean Martin’s son, Ricky Nelson (the exception with talent). Switching into anal mode again…Nancy Sinatra had her first hit in February 1966, two years after The Beatles hit America. Dino, Desi and Billy’s first hit was in mid-1965, a year and a half after. So since Rick Nelson is “the exception with talent,” looks like your theory isn’t holding up too well! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/53 "2014-01-17T05:54:49Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > There is also this deeply weird comment from Sinatra in 1957: > How about Mitch Miller, the uber-powerful A&R head of Columbia Records? > Or William F. Buckley? > > That was 1964. He seems to have shut up after that, maybe around the time that Sinatra started covering rock songs and Miller got fired from Columbia. I definitely agree with you that Mitch Miller and WFB were comedians. 😃 (I had to suffer through my parent’s Mitch Miller records. ) They usually had better taste - they bought Bill Cosby’s early stuff and my mother had a Spike Jones 78. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762/54 "2014-01-17T10:52:38Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > True enough; IIRC he cited Little Richard as his main influence during his pre-folk days. As I remember, in his high school yearbook he stated as his goal in life “to join Little Richard’s band”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-rock-really-dead-in-1959-64/678762.md?page=2)