# Was the America Civil War fought over slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766 "2016-01-21T10:03:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/221 "2016-01-29T15:29:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Wow, we are getting desperate aren’t we? Pretty much the opposite. You lost this argument a couple of pages back. Now the rest of us are running victory laps around you. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If the U.S. Was sitting in a Japanese harbor with a destroyer, would the Japanese be allowed to attack in your zany world? The ship is US property after all. Allowed by whom, Will? This is the real world, you don’t need anyone’s permission to go to war. If Japan attacked an American destroyer that was sitting in a Japanese harbor, Japan would be starting a war with the United States. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941, Japan was starting a war with the United States. And when the Confederates attacked Fort Sumter in 1861, the Confederates were starting a war with the United States. Let me repeat that point: the Confederates started the war. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The confederates tried to buy US property in the South in order to maintain peace, but the butcher Abe Lincoln did not want peace. I guess they shouldn’t have tried to pay with cannonballs. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/222 "2016-01-29T15:46:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > LOL. So the League of the South is great, except for that little thing of being white supremacists? Good luck defending white supremacists on all their other good qualities! Lincoln was great except for the mass murder, economic primitivism, and white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/223 "2016-01-29T15:48:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Like Lysander Spooner? Was he incredibly disrespectful to black Americans? How about the disrespect you present to the brown people around the world whose death you facilitate as a bureaucrat in comfy American suburbia? That’ll get you a warning, Will. No insults at all. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/224 "2016-01-29T15:48:20Z")
They actually tried to pay, but were rebuffed. Dispute? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/225 "2016-01-29T15:49:48Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That’ll get you a warning, Will. No insults at all. Oh like “neo-confederate” and disrespector of black Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/226 "2016-01-29T15:51:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How entwined are you with the mass murder of hundreds of thousands? Lincoln was hardly perfect. But he preserved the Union & ended slavery–even if that was not his initial “cause.” I’m more a fan of Lincoln than of Jefferson Davis–“ambitious as Lucifer and cold as a snake” according to Sam Houston. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/227 "2016-01-29T15:55:59Z")
I’m a fan of neither. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/228 "2016-01-29T16:01:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Like Lysander Spooner? Was he incredibly disrespectful to black Americans? I don’t think all libertarians are white supremacists or disrespectful to black Americans, but it’s disturbing how many seem to be. And at the time of the Civil War, the vast majority of those making libertarian arguments sided with the slavers. In the aftermath of the Civil War, those making libertarian arguments continued to tend to side with the brutalizers of black people. Why is this? And why, in the 60s, did most libertarian arguers fall on the side against black people once more? Why is there such a correlation between making libertarian arguments like ‘states rights’ and being against black people any time there’s a major dispute? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Lincoln was great except for the mass murder, economic primitivism, and white supremacy. Anti-slavery white supremacy is infinitely less bad than pro-slavery white supremacy, and nothing Lincoln did comes close to the crimes of the Southern leaders. Lincoln was not perfect, but he was far, far better than the leaders of the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/229 "2016-01-29T17:28:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Pffft. Considering your method of argument, you can safely be ignored. I can see why you would feel the need to ignore someone who argues based on historical fact, considering how many historical facts you’ve been ignoring or trying to dismiss via simple declaration. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/230 "2016-01-29T18:06:13Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Oh like “neo-confederate” and disrespector of black Americans? He called DiLorenzo _a fellow-traveler with neo-Confederates_. Which he is. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/231 "2016-01-29T18:23:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He called DiLorenzo _a fellow-traveler with neo-Confederates_. Which he is. No, [**Bridget Burke** called **Will Farnaby** a neo-confederate](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19057571&postcount=202). I’m confused by the warning. Is \*\*iiandyiiii \*\*specifically a bureaucrat that does something to facilitate deaths in other countries? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/232 "2016-01-29T18:23:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think all libertarians are white supremacists or disrespectful to black Americans, but it’s disturbing how many seem to be. And at the time of the Civil War, the vast majority of those making libertarian arguments sided with the slavers. In the aftermath of the Civil War, those making libertarian arguments continued to tend to side with the brutalizers of black people. Why is this? And why, in the 60s, did most libertarian arguers fall on the side against black people once more? Why is there such a correlation between making libertarian arguments like ‘states rights’ and being against black people any time there’s a major dispute? I think that at best, libertarians have this idealistic view that racism will just fix itself in a liberal utopia because it’s supposedly bad business. This is probably motivated in part by a desire to pay less taxes. At worst, libertarian is a retreat by conservatives who realize that their fetish of strict constitutionalism is contradicted by some of their social control agendas (see: war on drugs), and they are retreating to a more defensible intellectual position. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/233 "2016-01-29T18:52:08Z")
> [@bup](#): > > No, [**Bridget Burke** called **Will Farnaby** a neo-confederate](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19057571&postcount=202). > > I’m confused by the warning. Is \*\*iiandyiiii \*\*specifically a bureaucrat that does something to facilitate deaths in other countries? I used to be in the Navy, now I’m a civilian government worker for the Navy (engineering/logistics). **WillFarnaby** doesn’t seem to like that very much. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/234 "2016-01-29T19:01:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > They actually tried to pay, but were rebuffed. Dispute? If you want to buy my car, and I say “No,” are you then justified in shooting me? Is it my fault that you shot me, because I didn’t want to sell my property to you? On a related note, how do you feel about the nationalization of foreign holdings when Fidel Castro came to power? Theft? Or the lawful exercise of a sovereign nation over territory in its borders? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/235 "2016-01-29T19:41:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m a fan of neither. Out of curiosity, what course of action should Abraham Lincoln have taken after his inauguration? Can you explain a course of action that was politically and legally possible AND that would have resulted in a better result? Not just with regards to this silly Fort Sumter hijack, but in general. I mean, from where I’m sitting, there was no such course of action. If he allows secession, then even assuming he isn’t impeached, he is breaking the law, probably eventually destroying the United States, allowing the enslavement and murder of countless people to continue for decades more, and possibly dooming North America to further wars down the line. And that’s the only realistic other thing he could have done, really. So… is there an option I’m missing? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/236 "2016-01-29T20:27:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Out of curiosity, what course of action should Abraham Lincoln have taken after his inauguration? > … > If he allows secession, then even assuming he isn’t impeached, he is breaking the law, probably eventually destroying the United States, allowing the enslavement and murder of countless people to continue for decades more, and possibly dooming North America to further wars down the line. And that’s the only realistic other thing he could have done, really. So… is there an option I’m missing? Er… for one thing, it can’t possibly be “further wars” if he refrains from war at the time. But without taking the time to unpack everything… how is it “breaking the law” to say, “we believe you are wrong, but it is not in my just power to constrain you; go in peace”? The best course would have been to work for a phased abolition with compensated emancipation. Almost every other slaveholding country of the hemisphere and century abolished without war. Lincoln himself successfully applied compensated emancipation in DC. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/237 "2016-01-29T20:33:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you want to buy my car, and I say “No,” are you then justified in shooting me? Is it my fault that you shot me, because I didn’t want to sell my property to you? > > On a related note, how do you feel about the nationalization of foreign holdings when Fidel Castro came to power? Theft? Or the lawful exercise of a sovereign nation over territory in its borders? There’s a big difference between government property and private property. Government property is owned by the government only by virtue of them continuing to be the government. To the extent that another regime comes to power, then that new regime owns the government property. It’s not at all like a new regime coming to power and then seizing private property from people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/238 "2016-01-29T20:35:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s a big difference between government property and private property. > > Government property is owned by the government only by virtue of them continuing to be the government. To the extent that another regime comes to power, then that new regime owns the government property. > > It’s not at all like a new regime coming to power and then seizing private property from people. What you’re describing sounds like a coup – one government replacing another, and the former government ceasing to exist. But that doesn’t apply here – the USA government obviously continued to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/239 "2016-01-29T20:39:23Z")
I was responding to Miller, who was talking about a coup. But in any event, I don’t see the difference there. The South effectively made a coup, and in their areas one government replaced another and the former government ceased to be the government. It makes sense to me if this is the way it generally works when countries secede, though I don’t have any actual knowledge. (Do you?) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766/240 "2016-01-29T20:43:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I was responding to Miller, who was talking about a coup. > > But in any event, I don’t see the difference there. The South effectively made a coup, and in their areas one government replaced another and the former government ceased to be the government. I suppose the South attempted a coup, in a way, but I don’t think that justifies the attacks. > [@](#): > > It makes sense to me if this is the way it generally works when countries secede, though I don’t have any actual knowledge. (Do you?) I don’t either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-america-civil-war-fought-over-slavery/743766.md?page=13)