# Was the AP wrong for showing this horrifically injured, dying Marine? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 6, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056 "2009-09-06T11:34:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/1 "2009-09-06T11:34:20Z")
[General synopsis](http://www.huliq.com/7504/85901/real-story-behind-lance-cpl-joshua-bernie-bernard-dying-photo) [Reaction](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090904/ap_on_re_us/afghan_death_ap_photo) Photos - needless to say these are (Set 1) fairly graphic [Set 1](http://wearestjohns.com/ap-photo-of-lance-cpl-joshua-bernard.html) [Set 2](http://wearestjohns.com/joshua-bernard-death-photo-1.html) (Please do not search google for these photos as many of the sites they point to are virus traps) - this is a safe (albeit slow) blog) Was it wrong for the AP to disregard the requests of the parents and DOD show this picture? Honestly I’m kind of thinking not. Americans often have far too whitewashed a notion of the horrors of war. Bringing it home with this graphic picture makes everyone think about the sacrifices of the soldiers, what’s on the line, and the fact this is not some HALO game. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/2 "2009-09-06T12:02:09Z")
Per the [Navy PAO Manual](http://doni.daps.dla.mil/Directives/05000%20General%20Management%20Security%20and%20Safety%20Services/05-700%20General%20External%20and%20Internal%20Relations%20Services/5720.44B.pdf) (warning-PDF): > [@](#): > > Death generally extinguishes an individual’s privacy > rights. However, surviving family members may have a legitimate > privacy interest. Particularly sensitive personal details about > the circumstances surrounding an individual’s death may be > withheld when necessary to protect the privacy interests of > surviving family members. So if the family didn’t want _details_ of this Marine’s death publicized other than the fact that he died - that right should have been respected. How would you like it if you died in a workplace mishap in a particularly gruesome way and your employer and the local paper gave your spouse no choice about whether or not to print the bloody photos? I don’t see much difference here. ---
**Author:** ![pendgwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3da27b/32.png) [@pendgwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pendgwen)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/3 "2009-09-06T14:42:06Z")
I disagree with **Mr. Moto**. The public needs to see what really happens in the wars we’re fighting both to appreciate the sacrifices of those who fight and to analyze whether the cost is worth it. His link applies to the Navy Public Affairs office which necessarily has different priorities than the civilian press. And frankly I don’t think the picture is that graphic. It’s not a close-up. You can’t see the actual injuries, just some blood on the ground. In movie terms it’s not even PG-13. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/4 "2009-09-06T15:35:08Z")
> [@](#): > > **Mr. Moto** : How would you like it if you died in a workplace mishap in a particularly gruesome way and your employer and the local paper gave your spouse no choice about whether or not to print the bloody photos? I don’t see much difference here. When people support a war with their words and or their money, they should see the result of the _choices_ they have made. This is one of the results. His death was not a private death. We should always see all of the truth of the horrors of war. I am responsible for this man’s death. I paid my taxes without protest. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/5 "2009-09-06T15:36:15Z")
Duplicate ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/6 "2009-09-06T16:03:40Z")
> [@pendgwen](#): > > His link applies to the Navy Public Affairs office which necessarily has different priorities than the civilian press. I quoted that link because it supplied the necessary procedures of the Privacy Act that must be followed. Because soldiers have a public job they have a diminished expectation of privacy - but it is not entirely ceded and when they die there are certain privacy rights their families enjoy that by law must be respected. As for the desirability of these casualties being publicized - I don’t disagree at all and have argued in the past for better publicity across the board. But it shouldn’t be hard to do this with the permission of a family that wants to participate. ---
**Author:** ![imthjckaz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/imthjckaz/32/3223_2.png) [@imthjckaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imthjckaz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/7 "2009-09-06T16:11:10Z")
War is hell. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/8 "2009-09-06T19:08:20Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Was it wrong for the AP to disregard the requests of the parents and DOD show this picture? Yes. Next question? ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/9 "2009-09-06T19:32:13Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Was it wrong for the AP to disregard the requests of the parents and DOD show this picture? No. In fact, even the controversy itself is probably good. People need to be shown that there are real human beings fighting and dying over there. Just a list of names doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/10 "2009-09-06T19:36:14Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I quoted that link because it supplied the necessary procedures of the Privacy Act that must be followed. Because soldiers have a public job they have a diminished expectation of privacy - but it is not entirely ceded and when they die there are certain privacy rights their families enjoy that by law must be respected. The Privacy Act regulates the conduct of the federal government. The prerogatives of the press are protected by the First Amendment. There is nothing unlawful about the AP’s behavior (although the family might try to sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress, they are destined to lose such a suit). ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/11 "2009-09-06T19:39:11Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > So if the family didn’t want _details_ of this Marine’s death publicized other than the fact that he died - that right should have been respected. IMHO, this is exactly correct. Even though I think that images showing the actual casualties of war should be shown. But it’s not clear to me that “right” is the proper term; rather, I think “respect for the family’s wishes” is more apt. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/12 "2009-09-06T19:42:25Z")
Should the press print pictures of highway crash victims, to show the cost of our society’s choices with regard to roads and the car industry? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/13 "2009-09-06T19:46:07Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > IMHO, this is exactly correct. Even though I think that images showing the actual casualties of war should be shown. > > But it’s not clear to me that “right” is the proper term; rather, I think “respect for the family’s wishes” is more apt. This is a quaint–and deeply deluded–idea. The interests of the people of the United States in determining the rightfulness of prosecuting a war outweigh any one family’s preferences regarding the publication of an image taken at the scene of a battlefield injury. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/14 "2009-09-06T19:46:45Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Should the press print pictures of highway crash victims, to show the cost of our society’s choices with regard to roads and the car industry? Evidently, you never had to sit through “Grilles of Death” in 7th grade health class. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/15 "2009-09-06T19:49:53Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Should the press print pictures of highway crash victims, to show the cost of our society’s choices with regard to roads and the car industry? Apparently you’ve never heard of [the Highway Safety Foundation.](http://www.cinemaweb.com/highwaysafety/pages/about/chronology.html) (Note: I am not likening the exploitative filmmakers to the Associated Press; if you think, however, that the analogy is apt, I’ll ask you for a demonstration of it, rather than relying on mere innuendo.) ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/16 "2009-09-06T19:52:39Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > This is a quaint–and deeply deluded–idea. The interests of the people of the United States in determining the rightfulness of prosecuting a war outweigh any one family’s preferences regarding the publication of an image taken at the scene of a battlefield injury. No, it doesn’t. “The people of the United States” are made up families. A reflection of “the people’s will” is not monolithic and is necessarily disjoint. There is no reason to ride roughshod over one family’s sense of privacy and/or decorum when another family will not feel the same. Note that I’m not advocating anything legal; rather, I’m simply expressing an ethical opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/17 "2009-09-06T19:57:27Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > No, it doesn’t. “The people of the United States” are made up families. A reflection of “the people’s will” is not monolithic and is necessarily disjoint. There is no reason to ride roughshod over one family’s sense of privacy and/or decorum when another family will not feel the same. > > Note that I’m not advocating anything legal; rather, I’m simply expressing an ethical opinion. Your ethical theory is that each and every family ought to hold a veto over what all the rest of the American people are permitted to see and consider in formulating military policy? What if there were no families that would permit the publication of the picture over which they hold this veto power? Would we say, “I guess the American people don’t get to see the consequences of war.”? Your ethical theory apparently is incapable of distinguishing between sharing gratuitous details of another’s misfortunes at a church supper and affording people a serious look at a war that has had a profound effect on the lives of millions. Try to have a little perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/18 "2009-09-06T20:02:27Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > There is no reason to ride roughshod over one family’s sense of privacy and/or decorum when another family will not feel the same. The very fact that they published the photo indicates to me that there are probably not plenty of similar photos they could have chosen instead. From the link: “In the photo taken while under enemy fire, AP photographer Julie Jacobson captured the image just seconds after Bernard was hit with a grenade in his legs.” ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/19 "2009-09-06T20:03:22Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Your ethical theory apparently is incapable of distinguishing between sharing gratuitous details of another’s misfortunes at a church supper and affording people a serious look at a war that has had a profound effect on the lives of millions. Try to have a little perspective. Perspective, huh? I’m simply acknowledging the difference between theory and practice. Unlike, say, “_What if there were no families that would permit the publication of the picture over which they hold this veto power?_”, which is, from a practical point of view, a patently dumb question. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056/20 "2009-09-06T20:16:34Z")
The AP was wrong, because at the time the picture was taken the man was still alive. So the death extinguishing privacy considerations would not have applied. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-ap-wrong-for-showing-this-horrifically-injured-dying-marine/509056.md?page=2)