# Was The Beyonder the most powerful character ever, in the Marvel universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 20, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935 "2003-04-20T23:08:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![torben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@torben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torben)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/81 "2003-04-26T04:33:52Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Apos \* \*\*I’m not sure to what this refers. You mean Astra? Or that Roma chick that brought back the X-Men and gave them “technical invisibility” and the Seige Pierlous or whatever it all was? \*\* [/QUOTE/] I’ll be the first to admit that my comic memory is less than cosmic (get it?). I seem to remember a storyline where Magneto was killed and then resurrected by a powerful deity (demon?) and given strong enough powers to remove Wolverine’s adamantium skeleton from his body. But heck, it has been such a long time I may be muddling a couple of comic book storylines. Please correct me if I’m wrong. How powerful was the creature that was giving powers to the thieves and assasins from Gambit’s homeland? For you Trekkers/comic book fans out there, how powerful would the '“Q” be in the comic book universe? Would someone with the Infinity gems be powerful enough to destroy them all? How about the Living Tribunal? ---
**Author:** ![Alcibiades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/cab0a1/32.png) [@Alcibiades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alcibiades)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/82 "2003-04-26T14:16:01Z")
On the Phoenix: isn’t there an issue where Galactus kills her, the universe gets extingushed, the Watcher says, “Told ya”, and Galactus, somewhat chagrinned, re-boots the place? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/83 "2003-04-26T14:20:12Z")
There is. Excalibur, though I forget the exact issue. After 20. Torben is referring to Alpha the Ultimate Mutant. Q is no more powerful than the Beyonder, and possibly less so. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/84 "2003-04-26T19:10:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote \* > \*\*Check out Fantastic Four #55, which is reprinted in The Origins of Marvel Comics. The Silver Surfer reconstructs the Thing’s skycycle, which had just been destroyed in a battle with the SS. He also creates, apparently from air molecules, a bouquet of flowers for Alicia Masters. Therefore, he did have, at least in the early days, some ability to alter reality. > \*\* According to the link somebody posted earlier to the [Marvel.com](http://Marvel.com) web directory of superheroes, SS’s powers do include Molecular manipulation- > [@](#): > > Known superhuman powers: The Silver Surfer can endow himself with Class 100 strength, enabling him to lift (press) over 100 tons. He possesses the Power Cosmic which he can use to generate powerful force blasts or to rearrange molecules. The Surfer travels on a “surfboard” which responds to his mental commands and is as indestructible as he is. He has a Cosmic Awareness which allows him to feel energy around him. I wouldn’t say he is the most powerful because of that though. I am sure molecular man has a much greater control of matter than SS does. My personal guess on the most powerful being in the MU is the unknown Amberite passing through the shadow, armed with a pattern sword and reality molding powers sufficient to erase entire universes by accident if he drinks too much. (ok not really, just been roleplaying too long) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/85 "2003-04-26T23:22:43Z")
The Silver Surfer does possess the ability to rearrange molecular structure a la Firestorm. However, I maintain that molecular manipulation != control of reality. I explain this position fully in a previous post. RE-Amber So, you’ve discovered why they called him King Jack! ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/86 "2003-04-27T00:45:30Z")
Unfourtunately, I do not have the specific issues on hand (they are all in my attic back in Ireland). I can, however, give you a summary of the story. Thor, after various soap opera like instances with his alter-egos, finally goes nuts and starts seeing an asgardian named Valkeryie. Unfourtunately, she is entirely a product of his jaded mind. He finally loses it and goes into a multi-issue beserker mode. He beats the SS one on one and he beats him badly. He then fights the Destroyer (of the Infinity Watch) and takes his gem from him making Thor even more powerful. Thanos finally puts a stop to his rampage and brings him back to Asgard. Thanos and Odin fight with Odin getting the, slightly, upper hand. All is resolved in the typical Marvel way. (The Destroyer that was created by Odin is a diffferent story altogether…he usually beats Thor…except when Thor entered the Destroyer armour himself). Thor, imho, is (excluding the superclass powers) the most powerful Marvel hero. He combines brute force with certain mystical/magical elements. He rarely, if ever, lets his true powers show and I would always back him against the SS. Walter Simonson is a great Thor fan and has expoused this viewpoint in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/87 "2003-04-27T00:57:08Z")
Ahhh, ok, you meant _Drax_ the destroyer. In any case, I did a little research and verily I doth bequeath thee the victor in this epic battle of super-hero nitpicking. Oh well, I always liked Thor so at least if Silver Surfer had to lose it was to a worthy opponent. SS rules, Thor drools! HA HA HA, THE DAY IS MINE!!! ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/88 "2003-04-27T01:54:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > \*\*Chiming in late here. Consider that, back in the day, Galactus was “IT” for cosmic Marvel entities. Supposdely, Lee’s script for Kirby called for the Fantastic Four to fight “God,” thus giving birth to the Big G and his shiny metal herald. > > Creativity demanded somebody tougher to eventually come along. There will ALWAYS be another Beyonder, or Onslaught, or whatever cosmic type beyond contemplation. But in my heart, Galactus will always remain the ultimate threat. > \*\* A quibble: I’m almost positive that Strange Tales 140-ish came out before FF 49, in which case, Eternity wasn’t a “someone tougher” add on. Eternity was so tough that no-one, Dormmamu, Mordo, Dr. Strange or the Ancient One even considered fighting him. I just checked. Strange Tales 138 came out in August 1965, FF 48 was December '65, so Eternity came first by a few months As far as I’m concerned (which isn’t very far, dammit) the pecking order _should_ go: [ul] [li]Living Tribunal (Above the Tribunal is the “One above us all” God that Odin always talked about, if you want to include him. I’m not, since he’s never actually appeared in a Marvel comic.)[/li][li]Eternity (and, if we MUST, Infinity)[/li][li]Galactus[/li][li]Beyonder/Shaper of Universes/God help us, Kubik/Anyone with the Infinity Gauntlet/Phoenix/Death[/li][li]The various head-of-their-pantheon Gods (Odin, Zeus, etc), Franklin Richards (if you wanted him moved up a notch, I could be convinced)/Celestials\*/Mephisto and the various Satan types.[/li][li]Whatever the hell the Stranger, The Collector, etc were/[/li]“normal” gods (Thor, Pluto, etc)/The In-Betweener[/ul] I know. This isn’t the way Marvel’s written it: the Beyonder’s supposed to be more powerful than Eternity. But if I ever wrote for Marvel, there would be a BIG fix to get things in line with the above list. O’ course it’s NOT up to me, but frankly this one-upsmanship of More powerful than thou is just dumb. Eternity is the embodiment of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. The Living Tribunal is the arbiter between different universes’ embodiments. Fenris \*Yeah, I know, they’re supposed to be tougher than Odin. I don’t buy it. However, a retcon is that there’s only one Odin and there’s what…15? Celestials? ---
**Author:** ![torben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@torben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torben)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/89 "2003-04-27T06:52:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > \*\*There is. Excalibur, though I forget the exact issue. After 20. > > Torben is referring to Alpha the Ultimate Mutant. > > Q is no more powerful than the Beyonder, and possibly less so. \*\* To which are you referring? Is Alpha the deity that resurrected Magneto or the creature that gave powers to the thieves and assasins? And unlimited control over time and space doesn’t make the “Q” more powerful than the Beyonder? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/90 "2003-04-27T12:56:29Z")
Alpha was Magneto’s home-made uber-mutant who turned Magneto (and a bunch of the rest of the Brotherhood) into babies in Defenders 16 or so. Erik The Red (a Shiiar bad-guy) re-aged them around X-Men 104. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/91 "2003-04-27T17:55:37Z")
OK, so who’s reading **Marvel: The End**? As long as we’re talking uber-villains, I’m curious what everyone thinks of this Pharoah Akhenaten nut. Personally, I’d have expected better from Starlin, although there are three more issues in the series. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/92 "2003-04-27T19:05:40Z")
He looks _just_ like the guy from Dreadstar/The Price (well, other than being all black and stuff). I’m wondering if there’s a connection. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/93 "2003-04-27T22:03:25Z")
> [@](#): > > And unlimited control over time and space doesn’t make the “Q” more powerful than the Beyonder? Q isn’t even the most powerful entity in the Star Trek universe, and the Q certainly don’t have unlimited control over time. Don’t you remember the series finale? Q was _scared silly_ of the Anomoly, because it was just as capable of wiping out the Q as it was other lifeforms. Admittedly, he never says so, but he sure acts it. Also keep in mind that there was a whole race of Qs (we saw at least several dozen in the first episode), which would probably suggest that any individual one was not on a par with a unique being like one of the Marvel cosmics. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/94 "2003-04-27T22:38:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*A quibble: I’m almost positive that Strange Tales 140-ish came out before FF 49, in which case, Eternity wasn’t a “someone tougher” add on. Eternity was so tough that no-one, Dormmamu, Mordo, Dr. Strange or the Ancient One even considered fighting him. I just checked. Strange Tales 138 came out in August 1965, FF 48 was December '65, so Eternity came first by a few months > > As far as I’m concerned (which isn’t very far, dammit) the pecking order _should_ go: > [ul] > [li]Living Tribunal (Above the Tribunal is the “One above us all” God that Odin always talked about, if you want to include him. I’m not, since he’s never actually appeared in a Marvel comic.)[/li][li]Eternity (and, if we MUST, Infinity)[/li][li]Galactus[/li][li]Beyonder/Shaper of Universes/God help us, Kubik/Anyone with the Infinity Gauntlet/Phoenix/Death[/li][li]The various head-of-their-pantheon Gods (Odin, Zeus, etc), Franklin Richards (if you wanted him moved up a notch, I could be convinced)/Celestials\*/Mephisto and the various Satan types.[/li][li]Whatever the hell the Stranger, The Collector, etc were/[/li]“normal” gods (Thor, Pluto, etc)/The In-Betweener[/ul] > > I know. This isn’t the way Marvel’s written it: the Beyonder’s supposed to be more powerful than Eternity. But if I ever wrote for Marvel, there would be a BIG fix to get things in line with the above list. > > O’ course it’s NOT up to me, but frankly this one-upsmanship of More powerful than thou is just dumb. Eternity is the embodiment of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. The Living Tribunal is the arbiter between different universes’ embodiments. > > Fenris > > \*Yeah, I know, they’re supposed to be tougher than Odin. I don’t buy it. However, a retcon is that there’s only one Odin and there’s what…15? Celestials? \*\* Since we’re on the topic Fenris maybe you can give me a heads up one character I remember seeing (once) and I’m probably mis-remembering some elements so bear with me. IIRC it appeared a few years ago. The SS senses some power hidden in the earth and goes looking for it and finds this and this character so powerful he referred to Galactus as a “stripling” or a “child” and repaired the SS’s broken surfboard. I didn’t buy the comic because I was shopping for other stuff. Who was this character? ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/95 "2003-04-27T22:55:39Z")
Hmmmm…smells like the “Dreaming Celestial” to me–he was a rogue Celestial whom the others stuck under a mountain in California. He was killed off in one of Walt Simonson’s FF issues…although that story took place in an alternate future, so it’s possible that DC still exists in the Marvel Universe proper. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/96 "2003-04-27T22:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > How powerful was the creature that was giving powers to the thieves and assasins from Gambit’s homeland? Not all that powerful in the grand scheme of things. She was an external: they’re immortal, but their powers are just really suped-up regular mutant powers. Marvel doesn’t even do stories about them anymore for fear of lawsuits from Highlander people (essentially, they die, and then come back to life and realize their true powers). More here: [http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/pov/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=37](http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/pov/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=37) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/97 "2003-04-27T23:10:14Z")
Oh: her name was Candra. She’s dead now, or rather “dissipated.” It sucks being immortal in the Marvel universe: you tend to die all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/98 "2003-04-28T00:59:38Z")
It’s been a few years since I’ve read any comics, but, I remember one where Cable fought someone, I can’t remember his name, but anyway, his opponent could adapt to any situation. He was originally human, until Apocalypse put him into a machine which transformed him. He was programed to destroy the world, but then decided that maybe he wouldn’t. If anybody remembers who I’m talking about, has that character popped up any? It would seem that someone like that would be, if not the most powerful, then, at least he’d be close to it. ---
**Author:** ![torben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@torben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torben)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935/99 "2003-04-28T04:58:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*Q isn’t even the most powerful entity in the Star Trek universe, and the Q certainly don’t have unlimited control over time. Don’t you remember the series finale? Q was _scared silly_ of the Anomoly, because it was just as capable of wiping out the Q as it was other lifeforms. Admittedly, he never says so, but he sure acts it. Also keep in mind that there was a whole race of Qs (we saw at least several dozen in the first episode), which would probably suggest that any individual one was not on a par with a unique being like one of the Marvel cosmics. \*\* But was Q actually scared or was this another one of his games or self-righteous lessons for Picard? You see this is the beauty of the Q. You never know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-beyonder-the-most-powerful-character-ever-in-the-marvel-universe/169935.md?page=4)