# Was the bombing of Dresden a war crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475 "2010-12-17T04:34:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/1 "2010-12-17T04:34:33Z")
Yep, another WW2 question. We’ve had debates before on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, general consensus (and my own opinion based on facts at the time) being that it wasn’t pleasant, but in the end the bombs saved more lives than it took. The bombing of Dresden in February 13-15, 1945, destroyed around 15 square km of the city and killed approximately 25,000 German civilians, according to modern estimates (cited on the [wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II)). So, let it be resolved; has one of the greatest crimes of World War 2 been overlooked simply because the allies perpetrated it, or was it a justified use of ordinance in a climate of total war, when victory at any cost was paramount? In March, not long after, Churchill appears to admit fault in a letter to his chiefs of staff: > [@](#): > > “It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing German cities for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise, we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land. The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing.” [http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=d8df4fed-9a03-4d0b-90f7-57a9192e8a79](http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=d8df4fed-9a03-4d0b-90f7-57a9192e8a79) Proponents of the war crime view state that Dresden was a cultural jewel - known as ‘Florence on the Elbe’. Max Hastings writes; > [@](#): > > “the home of so much charm and beauty, a refuge for Trollope’s heroines, a landmark of the Grand Tour.” He writes that the bombing was the first time the public in Allied countries seriously questioned the military actions used to defeat the Nazis.[94] Cited: [Bombing of Dresden - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#British) In February 1945 - when the outcome of the war could be in no doubt - the city was also full of refugees, fleeing from raping Red Army approaching from the east. > [@](#): > > At a press briefing held by the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force two days after the raids, British Air Commodore Colin McKay Grierson told journalists: > > ``` > First of all they [Dresden and similar towns] are the centres to which evacuees are being moved. They are centres of communications through which traffic is moving across to the Russian Front, and from the Western Front to the East, and they are sufficiently close to the Russian Front for the Russians to continue the successful prosecution of their battle. I think these three reasons probably cover the bombing.[95] > > ``` (again cited in the wiki article). This last quote is interesting, as it also makes the case that Dresden was a justified target, being a centre of communications. The Marshall inquiry also states that Dresden had targets of military necessity, including factories and railway communications. In the end, I think it’s not an unreasonable conclusion to state that, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki it may be a terrible, but justified _at the time_ - but in a different way. Bomber Harris explicitly states that the aim of bombing was not to disrupt production, but to; > [@](#): > > the aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive…should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilized life throughout Germany.[128][129] Also, he commented, It should be emphasized that the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. **They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories**.[130] > **[Strategic bombing during World War II | The British later in the war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#The_British_later_in_the_war)** > > The purpose of the area bombardment of cities was laid out in a British Air Staff paper, dated 23 September 1941: We also know that this strategy was not particularly effective; > [@](#): > > Strategic bombing has been criticized on practical grounds because it does not always work predictably. The radical changes it forces on a targeted population can backfire, including the counterproductive result of freeing inessential labourers to fill worker shortages in war industries.[140] (from the same wiki article, cited). This makes the Marshall inquiry seem like a bit of a whitewash. But the key thing is; hindsight. It’s easy for us to look back and condemn, but at the time ending the war ASAP was the priority. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/2 "2010-12-17T04:43:35Z")
At the time–probably something that 90% would agree was necessary. After the fact–something so stupid and horrific, any right-thinking person is horrified. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/3 "2010-12-17T05:00:28Z")
I’m not sure I get your position. If it’s your take that _anything_ that can be claimed to further your aims in the war (effective or not in hindsight) is a justifiable action, then what can possibly be called a war crime? I suppose the very existence of such a thing as a “war crime” can be debated, but I doubt that was your meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/4 "2010-12-17T05:12:45Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > I’m not sure I get your position. If it’s your take that _anything_ that can be claimed to further your aims in the war (effective or not in hindsight) is a justifiable action, then what can possibly be called a war crime? I suppose the very existence of such a thing as a “war crime” can be debated, but I doubt that was your meaning. Good point, so let’s define what a war crime is. Here’s the relevant part, if you ask me; ““the wanton destruction of cities, towns and villages, and any devastation not justified by military, or civilian necessity”.[1]” > **[War crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime#cite_ref-0)** > > A war crime is a violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility for actions by combatants in action, such as intentionally killing civilians or intentionally killing prisoners of war, torture, taking hostages, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, deception by perfidy, wartime sexual violence, pillaging, and for any individual that is part of the command structure who orders any attempt to committing mass killings (including genocide or ethnic cleansing... The key word here I think is ‘wanton’. Were the allies destroying Dresden just for the sake of destroying it? There is evidence that suggests this is the case, which is why the debate exists - i.e. quotes by Churchill and Harris on causing terror. But, in the climate of total war, where justification is found by the presence of military targets and a communication hub (I’m basing this on a RAF memo, which was corroborated later by the Marshall inquiry - which stated “Dresden has developed into an industrial city of first-class importance… The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front… and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.[37]” (wiki on the bombing, cited). Like **samclem** , I am of the mind that at the time and before the bombing was authorised, the Allies would be negligent if they did not try to end the war ASAP - including bombings. However, looking back and with the joy of hindsight, it’s clear that the bombing of Dresden was a horrific event in a war full of them, where the effectiveness can be called into doubt. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/5 "2010-12-17T05:25:20Z")
I’m not sure I get your position either. When you mention: > [@Mr. Kobayashi](#): > > We’ve had debates before on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, general consensus (and my own opinion based on facts at the time) being that it wasn’t pleasant, but in the end the bombs saved more lives than it took. It is not relevant whether or not the bombs saved more lives than it took. If that was the sole criterion, hardly any tactical/strategic decision made during war time would be off-limits to being picked apart as a possible war crime. “All is fair in love and war” is the rule when you are defending against a genocidal aggressor intent on taking over the world. Inevitable mistakes, negligent decisions, and errs on the side of caution can be forgiven when engaged in a life or death struggle for the future of western civilization. ETA: I just saw your last post, which seems reasonable, though in contradiction with the title of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/6 "2010-12-17T05:39:03Z")
I take the position that when you kill Nazis, it’s not a war crime; that any actions taken against the Germans during World War II by the allied powers was justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/7 "2010-12-17T05:42:52Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > It is not relevant whether or not the bombs saved more lives than it took. If that was the sole criterion, hardly any tactical/strategic decision made during war time would be off-limits to being picked apart as a possible war crime. “All is fair in love and war” is the rule when you are defending against a genocidal aggressor intent on taking over the world. Inevitable mistakes, negligent decisions, and errs on the side of caution can be forgiven when engaged in a life or death struggle for the future of western civilization. > > ETA: I just saw your last post, which seems reasonable, though in contradiction with the title of the OP. Hmm. Maybe I’m up too early; I’ll redefine my position as - if committed today, with all applicable international laws, the bombing of Dresden would likely be classified as a war crime. I don’t believe that victor’s justice played as much as a part as people like to believe - the applicable Geneva Conventions on civilians didn’t come in until 1949. At the time, I think there was general feeling that the bombing was…unpalatable, but militarily justifiable (destroying communications and factories, to help the Reds advance and end the war quicker). I don’t think that the Allies were trying to destroy Dresden for the sake of it, or simply trying to kill civilians - which would be the defining traits of a war crime (although I’m willing to be proved wrong on that). On Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not to rehash old debates again, but both these cities had military targets in them - their bombings also shortened the war in comparison to all other military options available at the time. I’m aware that there’s a slippery slope argument to be had - ending the war quicker would justify _anything_, but there’s also a distinction to be made between the unjustifiable war crimes of the Nazis and Japanese (from the Massacre of Kalavryta to the Rape of Nanking) to what the Allies were morally prepared to do. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/8 "2010-12-17T05:45:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I take the position that when you kill Nazis, it’s not a war crime; that any actions taken against the Germans during World War II by the allied powers was justifiable. So, the killing of some 25,000 "Nazi"s is OK, as long as some of them were Nazi’s. If Germany had bombed NY City in 1945 and killed 25,000, would that have been justifiable? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/9 "2010-12-17T05:56:52Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > So, the killing of some 25,000 "Nazi"s is OK, as long as some of them were Nazi’s. > > If Germany had bombed NY City in 1945 and killed 25,000, would that have been justifiable? No, because New York City was not filled with Nazis. You’re misunderstanding me, I think. I’m not claiming that every action taken in war is justifiable, or even that every action taken in World War II was justifiable. Just any action taken against Germans in World War II. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/10 "2010-12-17T06:31:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > No, because New York City was not filled with Nazis. You’re misunderstanding me, I think. I’m not claiming that every action taken in war is justifiable, or even that every action taken in World War II was justifiable. Just any action taken against Germans in World War II. If we had a bunch more nukes and turned Germany into a fused glass parking lot and killed everyone, that would have been ok? Not that I don’t appreciate your position. Mine is pretty similar. Losers commit war crimes and winners don’t, Pretty much by definition, since the losers aren’t in position to drag anyone into court. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/11 "2010-12-17T06:37:52Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > At the time–probably something that 90% would agree was necessary. > > After the fact–something so stupid and horrific, any right-thinking person is horrified. ^^ This this this The OP needs to define what constitutes a “war crime” and distinguish it from 2010 sensibilities vs. 1943 sensibilities. A “crime” is only what we define it as. Some places a woman showing her ankles is a crime. While our perspective today considers what happened to Dresden hideous the perspective back then was distinctly different. From my reading I will say the bombing of Dresden did seem unnecessary and excessive even from a perspective of WWII but kind of a toss up. They were on a roll. I have not decided what to think of “Bomber Harris”. I think he went too far but then I was not living through WWII. Not sure I can make a call on this. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/12 "2010-12-17T06:47:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Just any action taken against Germans in World War II. So the mass rapes of German women by the Soviets was justified? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/13 "2010-12-17T07:07:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > So the mass rapes of German women by the Soviets was justified? That would be a crime, rather than a war crime? Anyway, you’ll notice that the Germans have stopped waging genocidal wars to devastate Europe every thirty years or so. So perhaps Allied tactics in WW2, including the firebombing and rape, were more appropriate than those adopted in WW1? For someone who so eloquently critiques current US policy and the backlash against American citizens, I’d be surprised that you don’t get this. I do not buy the argument that nations who repeatedly wage unlimited and indiscriminate warfare against their neighbours deserve to be protected by their victims, or that there is some equivalence of guilt between the Nazis and their victims. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/14 "2010-12-17T07:10:17Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > That would be a crime, rather than a war crime? No, rape is acknowledged as a war crime under the Geneva Convention. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/15 "2010-12-17T07:11:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I take the position that when you kill Nazis, it’s not a war crime; that any actions taken against the Germans during World War II by the allied powers was justifiable. We’re talking about 25,000 civilians. You really think that all of them were Jew-hating Hitler-hailing Nazi sympathizers? ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/16 "2010-12-17T07:15:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > So the mass rapes of German women by the Soviets was justified? I would assume **Captain Amazing** means any _military action_. Where _military action_ would presume some _reasonable_ theory of tactical or strategic significance. I would propose the following criterion: Draft a jury of, say, 10 supposedly competent military strategists. Ask them if they find that such an action, given the information available at the time, could be seen to have some _reasonable_ tactical/strategic utility regarding the winning of the war. If _none_ of them agree, then it is probably a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/17 "2010-12-17T07:25:42Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > I would assume **Captain Amazing** means any _military action_. Where _military action_ would presume some _reasonable_ theory of tactical or strategic significance. And rape in war often has a military purpose, to destroy enemy morale. Just like the bombing of civilians in Dresden was supposed to do. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/18 "2010-12-17T07:25:50Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > I would assume **Captain Amazing** means any _military action_. Where _military action_ would presume some _reasonable_ theory of tactical or strategic significance. I would propose the following criterion: > > Draft a jury of, say, 10 supposedly competent military strategists. Ask them if they find that such an action, given the information available at the time, could be seen to have some _reasonable_ tactical/strategic utility regarding the winning of the war. If _none_ of them agree, then it is probably a war crime. It can (and has) been argued that the bombing of Dresden had no tactical or strategic utility regarding winning the war. It has also been claimed that the Russian soldiers were “let loose” on German women by their high command, as a reward, as revenge for the abuse and murder of Russian civilians, and as some kind of object lesson to the German people. I don’t recall how much evidence there was for the rapes as a matter of policy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/19 "2010-12-17T07:30:23Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > It has also been claimed that the Russian soldiers were “let loose” on German women by their high command, both as a reward, as revenge for the abuse and murder of Russian civilians, and as some kind of object lesson to the German people. I don’t recall how much evidence there was for the rapes as a matter of policy. I remember reading in _Berlin: The Downfall 1945_, that whilst rape wasn’t officially encouraged by Red Army brass they didn’t do much to counter it - only one recorded instance of the NKVD intervening in a gang rape, whilst a commander informed of the problem remarked that he “Didn’t give a fuck.” There was some attempt in official propaganda to dissuade the frontoviki from abusing the ‘gretchens’, but overall the Red Army was far more concerned that their soldiers in a blind rage were destroying useful resources. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2010, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475/20 "2010-12-17T07:31:03Z")
Pretty clearly a war crime that might have also accomplished minor military goals. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-bombing-of-dresden-a-war-crime/564475.md?page=2)