# Was the Confederacy a right-wing institution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540 "2019-03-04T18:26:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/21 "2019-03-04T20:34:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “Right wing” has no precise match to the politics of the antebellum USA. If either side was right wing, it was the Confederacy; the primary issue was slavery, and the expansion of civil rights is generally a left wing cause, while the imposition of discipline and avoidance of progress is generally a right wing position. Originally, right wing derives from the position of aristocrats in France; the Southern cause was certainly more aristocratic than the Northern cause. Yeah that’s about as close as you are going to get. Historically Aristocracy vs Commoners is the most fundamental part of the “left” vs “right” political spectrum (in fact going back to long before the terms “left” and “right” were coined). And the confederacy were explicitly self-identified with the aristocratic (“right” wing) part of the that spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/22 "2019-03-04T20:37:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > **XT** has it about right. > > What confused me is how you, **Ravenman** ,came back implying Lincoln was a lefty. He was an elitist railroad lawyer, nationalist, and white supremacist and supporter of Illinois Black Codes. There are different flavors of right wing. You have Hamiltonian - Henry Clay right wing repped by Lincoln and you have Southern traditionalist (I.e. slaver) right wing repped by CSA. Both were involved with the maintenance of a certain order. Even Lincoln wanted to continue slavery (Corwin amendment) in order to maintain the order. Ultimately, he went to war to preserve the order. On edit – but we agree that the Confederacy was a right wing institution, right? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/23 "2019-03-04T20:44:05Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Yeah that’s about as close as you are going to get. Historically Aristocracy vs Commoners is the most fundamental part of the “left” vs “right” political spectrum (in fact going back to long before the terms “left” and “right” were coined). > > And the confederacy were explicitly self-identified with the aristocratic (“right” wing) part of the that spectrum. The march of liberalism wasn’t of the aristocracy or the “commoners”. It was of the upper middle class. Both sides called on commoners for manpower on different occasions. Commoners don’t make political movements. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/24 "2019-03-04T20:49:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > On edit – but we agree that the Confederacy was a right wing institution, right? In the sense that it was concerned with the maintenance of a sociopolitical order, yes. But what it is the point of doing so when the Union was right wing as well? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/25 "2019-03-04T20:56:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > In the sense that it was concerned with the maintenance of a sociopolitical order, yes. But what it is the point of doing so when the Union was right wing as well? Well, it’s kind of like someone sitting on a diving board and asking a passer-by if water is wet; and getting a response that focuses on the dampness of slugs. Affirming that water is wet is the issue at hand for the person on the diving board. Maybe someday we will talk about the nature of slugs. For now, we can answer the question that had been posed. BTW, I think you meant that you **inferred** something from my comments in the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/26 "2019-03-04T20:57:03Z")
Mao’s China and Stalin’s Russia are both pretty obviously leftist authoritarian regimes. Neither of them was particularly liberal, though (liberal does not correspond perfectly with leftist, just as conservative does not correspond perfectly with rightist). Nazi Germany was pretty clearly a far right authoritarian government. The Confederate States of America were a far right democracy\* while the Union was a more centrist democracy. \*The Confederacy didn’t last long enough for us to see how democratic they actually would have been in the long run. Had the south successfully seceded, they may have become more authoritarian in their quest to protect slavery as an institution. Saying that this isn’t true because the South was full of Democrats is silly. Back then, the democrats were to the right of the republicans. That’s like saying that the Czar was Russian and Russians are communist, ergo the Czar was on the left. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/27 "2019-03-04T20:57:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The march of liberalism wasn’t of the aristocracy or the “commoners”. It was of the upper middle class. Both sides called on commoners for manpower on different occasions. Commoners don’t make political movements. Well everyone is who isn’t an aristocrat is part of “the commons”. In different times and places over the centuries countless political movements with all sorts agendas claimed to be working on behalf of the “common people”. But the fact remains if you are going to go back a couple of centuries and try and place a political movement on the on a “left” vs “right” political spectrum analogous to the modern US one, “aristocracy” vs “commoners” is the closest you are going to get. And the confederacy was clearly on the “aristocracy” side of that spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/28 "2019-03-04T21:00:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What confused me is how you, **Ravenman** ,came back implying Lincoln was a lefty. Oh, I see what you mean. I thought you were saying Lincoln was a lefty who went to war to starve people. Feel free to argue the point, but I think it was pretty clear that you raised “right wing = eating; left wing = starving enemies to death.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/29 "2019-03-04T21:05:12Z")
As for Lincoln, if he was so right-wing, why did he say: > [@AbrahamLincoln](#): > > Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. > [https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/abraham\_lincoln\_395631](https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/abraham_lincoln_395631) Lincoln was no Socialist, but the Republican Party of the time was the worker’s party, and it acted like it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/30 "2019-03-04T21:26:02Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/31 "2019-03-04T21:47:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > As for Lincoln, if he was so right-wing, why did he say: > > Lincoln was no Socialist, but the Republican Party of the time was the worker’s party, and it acted like it. Because besides being a right winger who went to war to preserve a sociolpolitical order, he was also an economic illiterate? The third party system was not characterized by a dichotomy between labor and capital. I have never heard such a theory put forth. The split was regional and ethno-religious. Lincoln was never more than a lawyer for crony corporate railroad interests before he retreated to politics. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/32 "2019-03-04T21:55:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Because besides being a right winger who went to war to preserve a sociolpolitical order, he was also an economic illiterate? > > The third party system was not characterized by a dichotomy between labor and capital. I have never heard such a theory put forth. The split was regional and ethno-religious. > > Lincoln was never more than a lawyer for crony corporate railroad interests before he retreated to politics. I find it interesting that you muster such revulsion for Abraham Lincoln. I would have a lot more faith in the future of our shared nation if the subjects of your revulsion were the people who thought it was ok to own other human beings as property. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/33 "2019-03-04T22:15:27Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > \*The Confederacy didn’t last long enough for us to see how democratic they actually would have been in the long run. Had the south successfully seceded, they may have become more authoritarian in their quest to protect slavery as an institution. Just to speculate, I figure a number of states would have inevitably seceded from the Confederacy itself when industrialization made the whole slave-economy thing unviable. Individually, the states would have varied in how desperately and reality-avoidingly they clung to slavery and at least a few of them would go crawling back to the Union for its protection when they start to turn on each other. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/34 "2019-03-04T22:27:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just to speculate, I figure a number of states would have inevitably seceded from the Confederacy itself when industrialization made the whole slave-economy thing unviable. Individually, the states would have varied in how desperately and reality-avoidingly they clung to slavery and at least a few of them would go crawling back to the Union for its protection when they start to turn on each other. I definitely agree – slavery was no longer economically viable (ironic that WillFarnaby accuses Lincoln of being the one who didn’t understand economics) and was already on the decline even in the deepest South. That’s why I brought up authoritarianism, though-- with a strong government you can force a flawed economic system to keep chugging along. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/35 "2019-03-04T22:46:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I find it interesting that you muster such revulsion for Abraham Lincoln. I would have a lot more faith in the future of our shared nation if the subjects of your revulsion were the people who thought it was ok to own other human beings as property. I find it interesting your faith in our shared nation rests on ignoring facts about Lincoln so we can virtue signal about slavery in 2019. > [@Babale](#): > > That’s why I brought up authoritarianism, though-- with a strong government you can force a flawed economic system to keep chugging along. Yes. That is one reason Lincoln threatened “blood” in his first inaugural address in order to collect duties and imposts. His politics were “short and sweet like the fat man’s dance”, he favored high protective tariffs, a national bank, and an American System of “internal improvements”. IOW he was a runof the mill mid-19th century corporate crony who was going to build railroads for his buddies. This required tariffs such as those collected at Ft Sumter. This is what authoritarianism looks like. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/36 "2019-03-04T22:54:32Z")
There is never a shortage of destructive ideologies that will claim Lincoln as a prototype. Look at the purveyors of the Iraq War who claim him. Look at historians like Eric Foner who wished Gorbachev would have pulled a Lincoln and slaughtered millions. There remains a Greek temple dedicated to worshipping him. The CSA is largely viewed as comic book villains comparable only to Hitler. Yes, Lincoln needs more allies. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/37 "2019-03-04T23:04:50Z")
_checks forum_ Alright, you do you. _whistles innocently_ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/38 "2019-03-04T23:08:36Z")
In all seriousness. Lincoln had serious flaws. He was a racist, for one. But his zealousness in opposing the south is to be commended, it’s not one of his flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/39 "2019-03-04T23:56:19Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There is never a shortage of destructive ideologies that will claim Lincoln as a prototype. Look at the purveyors of the Iraq War who claim him. Look at historians like Eric Foner who wished Gorbachev would have pulled a Lincoln and slaughtered millions. But that’s irrelevant to anything Lincoln actually did. Take anyone who is generally admired - just name them - and odds are that someone has twisted their legacy to serve an objectionable agenda. > [@](#): > > The CSA is largely viewed as comic book villains comparable only to Hitler. Without making any comparisons to Hitler, yes, Confederates ARE real life comic book villains. Not sure why you would argue differently. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540/40 "2019-03-04T23:57:39Z")
We can all either respond to Will’s unique worldview, in which Lincoln was an economic illiterate; or we can carry on the conversation we were previously having. I’m not sure both are feasible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-confederacy-a-right-wing-institution/830540.md?page=3)