Was the Confederate secession legal?

except through revolution, or through consent of the States. The SCOTUS basically suggests two options, war and go with our blessing, but I’ll suggest a third. The remaining 49 States do not consent to the secession of a State but refuse to go to war in order to bring the rogue state back into the Union.

Who among you is going to authorize the aerial bombing of San Diego, a seal team assault against Portland, Miami, or Houston, or the naval bombardment of Denver?

“Those” people have rejected our Constitution and our Democratic Republic way of life. HOW DARE THEY! What are we going to do about it? I don’t want to do anything about it. Me neither. You’re just going to let them go? Uhm, yeah. Why not? I don’t know? It seems like we should do something? Like what, invade them? I’m not in favor of that. Me neither. Ok. How about a strongly worded email? Sure, but I don’t want to write it. Get someone else to write it. Fine. Someone else will send them a strongly worded email and I’ll add it to my facebook page. Anything else? Nope. OK then, I think we’re done here. Have a nice day.

In other words, consent. Grudging, tacit consent. For refusal to matter, it requires a credible threat of action backing it. Otherwise refusal is an insincere empty gesture, or an ineffective bargaining position.

Are you arguing that such a thing is flatly impossible? Because the actual subject of this topic, and the resulting conflict, clearly contradicts that. Or are you saying that it’s not possible in this enlightened day and age?

De facto consent is consent. I suppose you are saying that Congress never officially votes to let them go. That would last as long as the rump session of the Reformed Government of California decides to rejoin the union. They petition Congress and then Congress must decide whether or not to let the California Republic legally secede.

Just look at how West Virginia was formed.

That’s true. I ain’t promising you nothing extra. I’m just giving you life and you’re giving me life. And I’m saying that men can live together without butchering one another.
-Josey Wales

Nothing is flatly impossible. However, I do not give you my consent, grudging, tacit, or otherwise, to leave. Period, end. But, I will not lift a hand to stop you from going. And I have no intention of forcing you to return.

Unless…

you attack me. Either at Ft Sumter in 1861, or some other location in 2015.

Today, people debate whether succession is legal. As you point out, without a credible threat of action, the legality of the action is moot. You seceded and I’m not going to do anything about it. The secession is successful.

West Virginia seceded from Virginia, which was no longer considered a U.S. State in good standing. The U.S. Congress then decided to accept West Virginia as one of the United States.

(Which leads to question - In 1861, was West Virginia accepted as the 35th State or was it considered to be the 2nd 24th State?)

I’ve lived in TX my whole life, and every time the subject comes up (sadly, it does): I tell my fellow Texans that I wouldn’t only happily approve of making war on them if they decide to secede, I’d participate if the attacking force would take me. I assure them I am serious, that stupidity cannot be tolerated.

What if the South simply did not take offensive action against Ft. Sumter?

Ft. Sumter was one of only three United States forts located in the states that seceded from the Union still under Union control. In other words, except for those three forts, the South had absolute control of their lands. They had a working government, ship yards, a mint in Louisiana, etc. They were producing their own coinage, had a flag, government, navy, army, and foreign agents that were acting like ambassadors The Confederacy for all purposes, were acting like a nation state.

At the same time, Lincoln was not threatening military action. The U.S. army at that point had only a few thousand solders located mainly in the West, and calling up the state militias was not a popular move. All Lincoln could do is keep the three forts still under U.S. jurisdiction under their control. As long as there wasn’t an attack on the U.S. itself or on U.S. troops, most people in the North didn’t want to bother with the South.

How long would the Confederacy have to be a mere de facto republic before Great Britain and France would decide to recognize them? How would the U.S. put up with the pressure of France and Great Britain before being forced to negotiate with the Confederacy? If the South restrained itself from firing on Ft. Sumter, the North would have never taken action against succession and the North would sooner or later be forced to negotiate with the Confederacy for their independence.

So, why did the South fire upon Ft. Sumter?

One reason is that the South were a bunch of hotheads raring to fight. They didn’t want a peaceful secession. I doubt that even the hottest of hotheads would have risked a war just for the heck of it, though.

Another reason is that the Confederacy at that time only consisted of seven states in the deep South and Texas. The Confederacy’s had attempted to woo the Upper Southern states into joining them, but so far had failed. I doubt the seven state Confederacy was a viable country. If the main ire of the secessionists was the refusal to return run away slaves to their owners, secession certainly wasn’t the route to take. It would have meant that the deep South was now a foreign country. Slave hunters would from these territories would not have permission to roam through the U.S. It is also unlikely that the courts – even in the South would care too much about returning slaves to what is now a foreign government. It would have been impossible to protect slavery in a seven state Confederacy. Sooner or later, the Southern states would have requested to be readmitted to the Union.

Firing on Ft. Sumter and defeating the United States rallied the secessionists in the upper South. It also rallied the North and made it possible for Lincoln to call up volunteers which pushed many states in the upper South into seceding.

Also The Golden Circle fantasy played into the vision of those who worked for the Confederacy. Many of the Filibusterers were Southern proslavery people who later held high office in either the Confederacy or the Confederacy’s military. The Confederate Congress played a lot of games with the idea of invading Mexico, even as late as 1864 when you think they’d have their mind on other more pressing issues. Jefferson Davis also talked about the South being a Tropical Republic.

Slavery was a dying institution when the Civil War happened, and I believe that’s one of the reason it did happen. Slavery was being banned by more countries, and in the U.S., states that use to have slaves had made the practice illegal. The Civil War was the last embers of a dying cause exploding violently before collapsing.

(post shortened)

I agree with you. The C.S.A. lost everything because they started a shooting war.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=676680&highlight=sumter

It’s not precisely that Virginia was “no longer considered a U.S. State in good standing”–the U.S. government never accepted that any of the self-proclaimed Confederate states was no longer part of the Union. Rather, the government of Virginia was declared to be no longer in good standing, on account of having taken the (according to the federal government) illegal and insurrectionary action of unilaterally proclaiming secession from the United States. A new, loyalist government–“the Restored Government of Virginia”–was formed and was recognized by the federal government. The Restored Government only exercised any power in Unionist areas of the state, along with areas under direct U.S. military occupation, and much of the territory the Restored Government controlled was in the northwestern portion of the state–what is now West Virginia. (The Restored Government initially met in Wheeling, which is so far north it’s practically Pennsylvania.) Nonetheless, the Restored Government was considered by itself and the U.S. government to be the government of the entire state of Virginia, including what is today Virginia as well as what is now West Virginia.

There were, however, long-standing tensions between the mountainous northwestern areas of Virginia and the plantation-economy eastern areas of the state, and even before the war there was support in the mountain areas for the idea of breaking away from Virginia and forming a new state within the Union (a procedure that would be legal under the Constitution provided that not only Congress but also the legislature of the state in question agreed). There was even precedent for such a thing–until 1820, Maine had been part of Massachusetts, but was separated from Massachusetts and admitted as a new state, with the consent of Massachusetts.

So, the Restored Government–of, officially, all of Virginia–duly gave its consent as required in Article 4, Section 3, Clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution and agreed to the formation of a new state (“Kanawha”, but later changed to “West Virginia”), which wound up occupying most of the territory under the actual control of the Restored Government. The Restored Government then moved to Alexandria (which was under federal military control for the pretty much the whole war); the “Alexandria government” was considered by the North to be the government of Virginia (minus the new state of West Virginia) from then on, moving to Richmond when the Union re-took the city.

There were some pretty considerable irregularities and weirdnesses in all this: A substantial number of counties voted for secession, then (according to the Unionists) voted for the new Unionist state of West Virginia; the convention forming the Restored Government and the statehood referendum authorizing the creation of the new state were both held under pretty highly irregular circumstances. After the war, Congress made Virginia’s regaining of Congressional representation (often referred to as “re-admission to the Union”, though it was not considered to be such by the federal government, since the position of the federal government was that none of the states had ever left the Union, just that their governments had been illegally taken over by insurrectionists) contingent upon re-affirming the actions of the wartime Restored Government and recognizing the formation of West Virginia.

For crying out loud, is “secession” really that hard to spell correctly?
Powers &8^]

With autocorrect, it can be. If you mistype one character or get two characters out of order, it automatically gets corrected to succession.

After the debacle of my post, I turned it off on my Mac. Now, if I mistype it, I see a squiggly red line, and then it suggests succession which I blindly accept.

qazwart
Look up “Star of the West” as a possible answer to your question. The big difference is that the firing on Ft. Sumter occurred when Congress was out of session so Lincoln retaliated as CinC (remember this was before the War Powers Act) so then when Congress came back in session they were presented with the fait accompli that a state of war existed.

Yes.
(damn auto-correct)

No.