# Was the DC-3 first aircraft designed With CAD? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 3, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534 "2008-12-03T17:59:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/1 "2008-12-03T17:59:18Z")
Compuer-assisted design is common today-we could not live without it. It enables engineeers to test designs before building stuff, and saves enormous amounts of time and money. i recall reading that either CalTech or UCLA build an analogue computer that was used to optimize wing designs=and this was first used by Douglas aircraft to design the DC-3. Anybody know? I see aircraft design getting very sophisticated , from the mid-1930’s on…what are the chances of a solitary genius (like Howrd Hughes) designing a breakthrough aircrat in his basement? Very unlikely? (Yes or No)? ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/2 "2008-12-03T19:13:58Z")
Well the first DC3 flew in late 1935 (per Wiki). That predates the first electronic computers certainly…what would you consider an analog computer? A hand-cranked adding machine for example? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/3 "2008-12-03T19:24:06Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I see aircraft design getting very sophisticated , from the mid-1930’s on…what are the chances of a solitary genius (like Howrd Hughes) designing a breakthrough aircrat in his basement? Very unlikely? (Yes or No)? Burt Rutan did exactly that. The solutions to his space plane design were not found in a computer. The rotating wing and straight down re-entry was pure creativity. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/4 "2008-12-03T19:31:17Z")
Definition of computer has changed a bit over the years: [http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-445/ch2-3.htm](http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-445/ch2-3.htm) > [@](#): > > Our work in the 8-foot tunnel was necessarily mostly experimental because flow problems involving shocks held little possibility of theoretical solution. In effect the tunnel was used as a giant analog computer producing specific solutions to the complex flow problems posed by each test model. Many other Langley programs generated important theoretical advances, among them airfoil and wing theory, wing flutter, propeller noise, nose-wheel dynamics, stability, control, spinning, compressible flows, heat transfer and cooling, and others. Langley’s principal theoreti-cians and analysts of the thirties included T. Theodorsen, I. E. Garrick, C. Kaplan, R. T. Jones, B. Pinkel, A. Kantrowitz, H. J. Allen, S. Katzoff, E. E. Lundquist, and P. Kuhn. > … > The desire to dramatize compressibility effects in that period reached its peak with our high-speed testing of a model of the DC-3 configuration in 1938. Although that stolid vehicle cruised at only about 160 mph, we [27] tested it up to 450 mph to show the speeds at which the various components, designed without regard for compressibility, became afflicted with shock wave problems. The tests showed the drag rise for the engine cowls started to develop at speeds as low as about 350 mph. For the first time we noticed the adverse effects of interference between components; the critical speeds of the cowls and of the wing were reduced about 20 mph by the presence of the fuselage (ref. 31). I’d be shocked if they didn’t use wind-tunnel models in designing wings for the first DC-3. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/5 "2008-12-03T19:45:23Z")
The earliest use of computers in designing things, that I know of, dates back to the Tucker. They ran the car through what was called a “bridge.” This was an upside down U shaped device with marked rods that were moved until they touched the car, the numbers were written down and then fed into a computer which calculated the necessary curves for making the dies. One could call this CAD work, but its certainly a far cry from what we do today. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/6 "2008-12-03T20:05:34Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > I’d be shocked if they didn’t use wind-tunnel models in designing wings for the first DC-3. Yes. - Plane that Changed the World (The) NOVA joins the 50th anniversary celebration of the DC-3—the plane that revolutionized commercial air travel, served gallantly in World War II and is called the most important plane ever built. Original broadcast date: 12/17/85 Topic: technology/aeronautics & flight \* If you can get your hands on the above PBS show you’ll see the Douglas engineers describe using a wind tunnel at one of the universitys. Actually they first used the tunnel on the DC-1 (a prototype) and the DC-2 (which did go into production). ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/7 "2008-12-03T21:08:28Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Definition of computer has changed a bit over the years: > > [http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-445/ch2-3.htm](http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-445/ch2-3.htm) > > I’d be shocked if they didn’t use wind-tunnel models in designing wings for the first DC-3. There is no way a wind tunnel is a “computer”, analog or otherwise. They would use it instead of a computer but it is not a computer in any sense of the word. Or you could say a piece of cheese qualifies as a computer. ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/8 "2008-12-03T21:36:20Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Or you could say a piece of cheese qualifies as a computer. Well, if the cheese came up with the right answer I’d certainly consider it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/9 "2008-12-03T21:37:06Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > There is no way a wind tunnel is a “computer”, analog or otherwise. Not my words, look at the quote. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/10 "2008-12-03T21:37:45Z")
[Analogue computers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer). I remember reading that _mechanical_ analogue computers were used before the Second World War, so I wouldn’t be surprised at all to find that they were used on the DC-3. On reading the Wiki link from that page for ‘differential analyser’, I see that they might have been a little later than 1935 though. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/11 "2008-12-03T22:05:18Z")
> [@Madd\_Maxx](#): > > Well, if the cheese came up with the right answer I’d certainly consider it. What? You never heard of a cheesy computer? Question: What color is this cheese? I look at it and there, in front of my eyes is the answer: It’s yellow! Question: How much does this piece of cheese weigh? I put it on the scale and there is the answer: 1 lb Question: How much does this piece of cheese cost? I look at the label and right thee is the price: $4.79 Question: What ingredients does this cheese have? I look at the label and see it has some milk and a whole lot of chemicals. This is a truly incredible piece of cheese. How is that different from a wind tunnel where you do experiments and get results? That’s like asking how much power it takes to move my boat through the water and then putting a dynamometer on a towline and measuring it and saying the dynamometer is “computing”. No, measuring is not computing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/12 "2008-12-03T22:36:30Z")
All that tells you is that “analogue computer” is an extremely general term. Which it is. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/13 "2008-12-03T22:44:36Z")
I do not think anyone would consider a wind tunnel, or a speedometer or any measuring equipment a “Computer”. You would have to get to a slide rule or similar device and, while the term may be strictly correct, even then most people would say it was a bit of an abuse of the term. The term “computer” whether analog or digital, really would only commonly be used for very complex electronic or mechanical computers. Nobody would call a handheld calculator a “computer”. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/14 "2008-12-03T22:52:25Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I do not think anyone would consider a wind tunnel, or a speedometer or any measuring equipment a “Computer”. > > You would have to get to a slide rule or similar device and, while the term may be strictly correct, even then most people would say it was a bit of an abuse of the term. > > The term “computer” whether analog or digital, really would only commonly be used for very complex electronic or mechanical computers. Nobody would call a handheld calculator a “computer”. Actually, prior to the invention of electronic devices after WW II the term “computer” was the job title of a person who did calculations with pencil and paper. ---
**Author:** ![UncleFred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@UncleFred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleFred)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/15 "2008-12-03T23:04:42Z")
Settimng aside the discussion of ‘what is a computer?’… Well, then what was the first airlane designed entirely with CAD, in the sense of a commercially available package installed on one or more computers having at least a screen, keyboard, and GUI? I nominate the following; The Boeing 777. (First delivery 1995) I am looking right now at my copy of “Twenty-First Century Jet - The Making and Marketing of the Boeing 777” which I picked up on a tour of the Boeing plant several years back. The overleaf implies, and seems to my memory correct, that this may have been the first airplane to be designed entirely on CAD (on multiple machines at design sites around the world). It also appears to be the first airplane to be flown entirely “by wire” ; i.e. electronic remote controls instead of hydraulics all running from the cockpit. Anyone have an earlier candidate? ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/16 "2008-12-03T23:43:52Z")
> [@UncleFred](#): > > It also appears to be the first airplane to be flown entirely “by wire” ; i.e. electronic remote controls instead of hydraulics all running from the cockpit. > > Anyone have an earlier candidate? IANAAH but wiki shows a variety of airplanes that were fly by wire well before the Boeing 777: > **[Fly-by-wire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire#Fly-by-wire_.28FBW.29_control_systems)** > > Fly-by-wire (FBW) is a system that replaces the conventional manual flight controls of an aircraft with an electronic interface. The movements of flight controls are converted to electronic signals, and flight control computers determine how to move the actuators at each control surface to provide the ordered response. Implementations either use mechanical flight control backup systems or else are fully electronic. > Improved fully fly-by-wire systems interpret the pilot's control inputs as a d... Starting with the Avro Vulcan in the 1950s. I knew that the X29 was FBW and that was in the mid 1980s. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/17 "2008-12-03T23:49:21Z")
> [@UncleFred](#): > > The overleaf implies, and seems to my memory correct, that this may have been the first airplane to be designed entirely on CAD (on multiple machines at design sites around the world). It also appears to be the first airplane to be flown entirely “by wire” ; i.e. electronic remote controls instead of hydraulics all running from the cockpit. > > Anyone have an earlier candidate? The X-15, IIRC, was FBW. Neil Armstrong helped to develop the technology and pushed it for use in the Apollo program. Interestingly enough, when he first sugested the idea to the Apollo engineers, they didn’t think that it would work, until he pointed put that he’d been flying planes with it before he joined NASA. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/18 "2008-12-04T06:16:51Z")
‘By wire’ and “entirely by wire” are two different things. If a cockpit has a radio with a twist knob, it is not total fly by wire. If there is a hydraulic control, of any sort, or a push pull cable of any sort, it is not entirely flown by wire. Main flight controls, yeah, that was done a while back. It is just words and bragging rights. I was the first person to sail a sail boat down the entire Arkansas River Navigation Channel without an engine. That was in 78. Lot of boats went before me, lots of sail boats eve, but… Not on sail alone. I was first. So, is/was the B777 first? I don’t really know. That word ‘entirely’ is really pesky. But you all have fun anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/19 "2008-12-04T06:55:36Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Actually, prior to the invention of electronic devices after WW II the term “computer” was the job title of a person who did calculations with pencil and paper. We were using computers in WW-II to decode German Enigma messages. They were designed and built in my home town. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2008, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534/20 "2008-12-04T07:02:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We were using computers in WW-II to decode German Enigma messages. They were designed and built in my home town. Yes, I know, but the common language shift of the meaning of the word didn’t happen until after the war. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-dc-3-first-aircraft-designed-with-cad/475534.md?page=2)